Okay, I think I have a winner here..................................................................................

[ikarasu]

Also, this isn't a new thing. My buddy is pretty much illiterate but graduated high school. He's not alone in my age group.

It's always been a thing, it's just More prelevant these days than before.

I bet you that 90% of the illiterate adults could learn to read in 6-12 months if they tried / wanted to.

A lot of kids are behind because not everyone learns at the same pace, my kid was reading faster than any in his class, but was behind in math. He didn't understand 1 section, so he was lost for the rest of the year. If they just kept bumping him grade after grade.... He'd still be behind in math and he'd be in grade 12 not knowing how to do most of the work. If he failed grade 1 math and had to goto summer school or back to grade 1 next year... It'd suck for sure, but at least he wouldn't be left behind to struggle in higher classes. I'm lucky enough to be able to have paid the $400 a month for tutoring to catch him up for a year... But a lot of people can't... So their kids just get stuck and lost in the system.

Not everyone who is behind has a learning disability... They just need a bit of extra attention / help to get past a hurdle. I'd rather them lose a grade / year of their life catching up, than go through the next 10 years of school constantly behind because they don't have the foundation to pass the class. Math especially... It's so linear, if you can't pass grade 3 math you can't pass grade 4-12 math. I don't think kids are getting any favors with a free pass.... But I guess we'll see in 20 years when that generation is out in the work force.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

It's always been a thing, it's just More prelevant these days than before.

I bet you that 90% of the illiterate adults could learn to read in 6-12 months if they tried / wanted to.

A lot of kids are behind because not everyone learns at the same pace, my kid was reading faster than any in his class, but was behind in math. He didn't understand 1 section, so he was lost for the rest of the year. If they just kept bumping him grade after grade.... He'd still be behind in math and he'd be in grade 12 not knowing how to do most of the work. If he failed grade 1 math and had to goto summer school or back to grade 1 next year... It'd suck for sure, but at least he wouldn't be left behind to struggle in higher classes. I'm lucky enough to be able to have paid the $400 a month for tutoring to catch him up for a year... But a lot of people can't... So their kids just get stuck and lost in the system.

Not everyone who is behind has a learning disability... They just need a bit of extra attention / help to get past a hurdle. I'd rather them lose a grade / year of their life catching up, than go through the next 10 years of school constantly behind because they don't have the foundation to pass the class. Math especially... It's so linear, if you can't pass grade 3 math you can't pass grade 4-12 math. I don't think kids are getting any favors with a free pass.... But I guess we'll see in 20 years when that generation is out in the work force.

But at what point do they catch up? Without outside help, tutoring or parents, it won't happen. So if the school doesn't force them along, do they go to 13th grade? There is no other way short of expelling them for not keeping up.
As for illiterate adults, you can't force someone to learn or want to learn anything.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Don't you choose the sport and know the conditions before enrolling? I couldn't imagine all baseball teams or all soccer teams being no score. I think there are those options out there and people who don't know anything about it, use it for arguments. (Not picking on you, but I think a lot of people do it)

We have choices here... My daughter was in a sport and there were different leagues she could join. Some were for fun and other were competition. She definitely didn't get a participation trophy. The cheer program she was in was brutal. They were not easy on those girls.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Don't you choose the sport and know the conditions before enrolling? I couldn't imagine all baseball teams or all soccer teams being no score. I think there are those options out there and people who don't know anything about it, use it for arguments. (Not picking on you, but I think a lot of people do it)

We have choices here... My daughter was in a sport and there were different leagues she could join. Some were for fun and other were competition. She definitely didn't get a participation trophy. The cheer program she was in was brutal. They were not easy on those girls.

Exactly. You also get placed in school classes based on your level the same way. There are multiple above level choices, on level and remedial level. It's also not as simple as all diplomas carry the same value. It's made equitable through weighted gpa so those who get A's in above level classes get a higher weighted gpa than someone in an on level class who got an A. So it's not an unbalanced or unfair system like some people make it out to be.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

If all we had were smart kids and everyone got perfect attention and education, plus you close the border to unskilled labor..there wouldn't be anyone to take the jobs at restaurants and you have wait forever in a half full dining room........... That doesn't happen does it?

 

[Notarealsignguy]

If all we had were smart kids and everyone got perfect attention and education, plus you close the border to unskilled labor..there wouldn't be anyone to take the jobs at restaurants and you have wait forever in a half full dining room........... That doesn't happen does it?

That's actually happening right now. Could it be possible that the no child left behind policy is actually working and many students are coming out of school at a level above being a menial worker? It is the complaint today.

 

[Stacey K]

My boys were both in the advanced math class since middle school. My youngest was in a gifted type group with 3 other boys. They are both graduated now but I was sad to hear my school stopped doing that class/group because of diversity crap. I have good basic math skills but I never grasped Algebra and beyond - I'm terrible at it. Their dad is a math wizard, very, very smart but little social skills. My boys grew up rebuilding motors, building sheds, all that stuff where they could put that math to use. If they hadn't had that I think they would still be good at math but because of their dad doing all those things with them I believe that's why they really excelled at it.

School is good for the basic things but where they really excel is if parents are doing things at home with them.

I will never forget my ex and his son. The boy only graduated because of a helper - literally, no joke at all. They both laughed about it, "who cares, as long as he gets his coupon". Well, now they boy can barely hold a job because he's stupid. When we found out he wasn't doing well at his job my son said, "How funny is it now that he didn't try in school."

How very true...

 

[ikarasu]

Don't you choose the sport and know the conditions before enrolling? I couldn't imagine all baseball teams or all soccer teams being no score. I think there are those options out there and people who don't know anything about it, use it for arguments. (Not picking on you, but I think a lot of people do it)

We have choices here... My daughter was in a sport and there were different leagues she could join. Some were for fun and other were competition. She definitely didn't get a participation trophy. The cheer program she was in was brutal. They were not easy on those girls.

I don't know if it's all sports. I know in my kids school, every sport my kids played has been a no goal sport. He's not in highschool yet, so maybe it's just the lower schools that are doing this.

By googling it, I see that the youth soccer body (like Fifa) has removed scores from all their games - maybe you.can find a private game around that keeps scores, but if the larger body has removed it.... How do you compete with people around Canada?

I don't really care or follow sports. Maybe it's just a few places and that makes the most commotion so it's pushed more on the news. I think if you want to go play a game for fun with no scores you should be able to find one, but I think the governing bodies of the sports shouldn't mandate it.

Sports was just 1 example though ... We're raising a generation of people who aren't encouraged to push themselves and try harder, people who are told it's ok if they don't understand school because there's no consequences if they don't. If I was a kid and knew I could skate by without trying.... I'd be playing video games all day and not care if my homework was done.

Another example - we have 2 people at work who can't show up on time no matter what. 10-15 mins late every single day. They're both young - and when confronted... Both say they have. "time blindness". I'm sure it's a real thing for some people, but it gets thrown around like it's nothing to anyone who is late for anything. Funny enough when one of their cars broke down and I ended up giving them a ride everyday.... (And found out he loves 1 block from me, and 10 mins from work... So he leaves after works start time everyday) he was outside ready to be picked up on time every single day. Never late to clock out or go on break or take a lunch.... But can't make it to work on time even 1 day a week.

My neighbors kid was diagnosed with add because he was doing bad in school and not paying attention, when he was 10. They refused any meds or anything because they thought he was too young... 2 years later and he's doing great in school and they no longer think he has add. A 10 year old who finds looking out the window more fascinating than math, diagnosed with ADD because he can't pay attention in class....

We label everything and make an excuse for everything these days....all so we don't offend or hurt anyone's feelings. It's getting out of hand.


And yes... I'm well aware I sound like "gramps" and his back in the day we were stronger speeches. Maybe all the changes are good for the future, personally I feel like if you expect nothing from everyone, that's what you're going to end up getting from them.... It'll be interesting to see how the workforce is in 15-20 years when everyone is graduated from no fail / no effort schools and thrown into the real world.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Well, you are Canadian... isn't Canadian football just a bunch of guys saying "excuse me" "sorry aboot that"

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I don't know if it's all sports. I know in my kids school, every sport my kids played has been a no goal sport. He's not in highschool yet, so maybe it's just the lower schools that are doing this.

By googling it, I see that the youth soccer body (like Fifa) has removed scores from all their games - maybe you.can find a private game around that keeps scores, but if the larger body has removed it.... How do you compete with people around Canada?

I don't really care or follow sports. Maybe it's just a few places and that makes the most commotion so it's pushed more on the news. I think if you want to go play a game for fun with no scores you should be able to find one, but I think the governing bodies of the sports shouldn't mandate it.

Sports was just 1 example though ... We're raising a generation of people who aren't encouraged to push themselves and try harder, people who are told it's ok if they don't understand school because there's no consequences if they don't. If I was a kid and knew I could skate by without trying.... I'd be playing video games all day and not care if my homework was done.

Another example - we have 2 people at work who can't show up on time no matter what. 10-15 mins late every single day. They're both young - and when confronted... Both say they have. "time blindness". I'm sure it's a real thing for some people, but it gets thrown around like it's nothing to anyone who is late for anything. Funny enough when one of their cars broke down and I ended up giving them a ride everyday.... (And found out he loves 1 block from me, and 10 mins from work... So he leaves after works start time everyday) he was outside ready to be picked up on time every single day. Never late to clock out or go on break or take a lunch.... But can't make it to work on time even 1 day a week.

My neighbors kid was diagnosed with add because he was doing bad in school and not paying attention, when he was 10. They refused any meds or anything because they thought he was too young... 2 years later and he's doing great in school and they no longer think he has add. A 10 year old who finds looking out the window more fascinating than math, diagnosed with ADD because he can't pay attention in class....

We label everything and make an excuse for everything these days....all so we don't offend or hurt anyone's feelings. It's getting out of hand.


And yes... I'm well aware I sound like "gramps" and his back in the day we were stronger speeches. Maybe all the changes are good for the future, personally I feel like if you expect nothing from everyone, that's what you're going to end up getting from them.... It'll be interesting to see how the workforce is in 15-20 years when everyone is graduated from no fail / no effort schools and thrown into the real world.

You're looking at things way too superficially. This is like telling a homeless guy the solution to all of his problems is to get a job. ADHD is a real condition, it is backed by actual science and can be seen on FMRI's AFAIK. Time blindness is also real. Yes, people use it as an excuse and others try to work around it. It takes an amount of effort to control that some people with ADHD do not have and it's something that can not really be understood by a person who does not have this neurodivergent issue. Rather than shoot from the hip, spend a minute and look at the actual disorder, there is a huge misunderstanding of what it is and the challenges that come from it. People automatically jump to it being a hyperactive thing or inability to pay attention and take the approach of - dude just work harder and pay attention. Dyslexia is another issue that people do not understand and simply perceive it as reading shit backwards. It is not simply that. Now take these issues and couple it with someone who is gifted, that is what is referred to as 2E. Now you have a smart kid who struggles to get through school or work because of a brain issue but it is not seen because their intelligence masks many of the issues that are used to diagnose it. These kids are pushed beyond what they should be because of their perceived potential. You never are cured of a neurodivergent problem, they can only be treated with medications and CBT but it will always be there. The issues tend to diminish as you age but that does not always happen. I'm sorry that you do not understand this but people need to stop painting everything with a broad brush. Pushing kids to what you perceive is their potential is damaging and the science backs it up. I'm not making excuses for anyone or anything but people need to realize that it isn't always as simple as try harder and pay attention.

 

[Signarama Jockey]

Are you frickin kidding? I feel bad for teachers, and dealing with the children is probably the least of their stressors. Between dealing with difficult parents and all the bureaucratic BS, it's amazing how so many of them hold on as long as they do.

If it is so bad, they should quit. But they don't. Because the compensation is worth it and they aren't held accountable.

Nonsense. You can't fix stupid. There are no more issues with schools today than there were 50 years ago. It is not there to teach you how to fix your car or how to balance a checkbook or how to make your bed, it is there to teach you fundamentals so you can think on your own. Parents need to be accountable, what the hell is wrong with this country and wanting to blame everything in sight for their own self created shitty life or inability to manage their finances? The elephant in the room with homeschooling is that most people are dumb, plain and simple. So if you want to perpetuate stupidity then by all means let the ignorant teach their kids. Kids also need socialization, that's just a big a part of your formal education as is the actual studies themselves.

If you consider reading to be a fundamental skill, then I don't see how you can say that school is fulfilling its mandate of "teach[ing] the fundamentals". Have you ever seen those youtube videos where they go up to 20somethings and ask them basic questions? Like, 'what were the sides in the Civil War?' and 'who won World War II' and 'where is North America?'. I know these are curated, but the fact that they can find enough ignorant people in a crowd in one night - people that don't know the basics of anything - is astounding. You can totally make an argument that teaching a child is not solely done in a school, and I'd agree with you. Parents do play a role. But, the school is the one who takes money out of your paycheck supposedly to do a job. If the job isn't being done, then I say stop taking my money and let's rethink things.

The fact is that teachers and administrators and school managers and school employees have a GREAT deal. They get loads of time off, predictable hours, generous compensation, healthcare, a lifelong pension, job security and no real accountability for how well (or poorly) they do their job. The system protects them, and the teachers union fights for them. Remember Michael Hosinski? He was the teacher of the year in 2020 at Jimtown High School in Elkhart, Indiana. In
2022 he attacked a student on camera on school grounds and promptly resigned - the school let him and granted him full benefits. Unlike a pizza place that gets your orders wrong or a grocery store that treats you rudely or a bank that loses your money, you can't take your money elsewhere when your local school fails you. Even if you don't have kids, you're forced to pay. The people of Indiana are paying Michael Hosinski's retirement $$ right now. Good teachers, bad teachers, dangerous teachers, it doesn't matter - you pay or they'll put you in jail.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

My daughter is high functioning autism. She has social quirks and challenges but 95% of the time is "normal". When we run into a social challenge that effects other people, they try to make the most obvious stupid suggestions on how we should parent and change it. "Oh, your kid is terrified of large / loud gatherings? You need to push her into it more so she get's used to it". OOOHHH REALLY??? I never thought of that! Like we didn't try doing that for YEARS starting at 1 year old... dealing with a massive struggle over and over and not getting anywhere...and eventually taking her to several physiologist after realizing something isn't normal and she's not growing out it, and eventually paying for an expensive test to figure out what was going on... and then using that diagnosis to talk to professionals and research how to help her in those situations.... now we did all that and never tried just pushing her. Yea... tough love is all ya need, and we're the weak parents for not doing that.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

If it is so bad, they should quit. But they don't. Because the compensation is worth it and they aren't held accountable.


If you consider reading to be a fundamental skill, then I don't see how you can say that school is fulfilling its mandate of "teach[ing] the fundamentals". Have you ever seen those youtube videos where they go up to 20somethings and ask them basic questions? Like, 'what were the sides in the Civil War?' and 'who won World War II' and 'where is North America?'. I know these are curated, but the fact that they can find enough ignorant people in a crowd in one night - people that don't know the basics of anything - is astounding. You can totally make an argument that teaching a child is not solely done in a school, and I'd agree with you. Parents do play a role. But, the school is the one who takes money out of your paycheck supposedly to do a job. If the job isn't being done, then I say stop taking my money and let's rethink things.

The fact is that teachers and administrators and school managers and school employees have a GREAT deal. They get loads of time off, predictable hours, generous compensation, healthcare, a lifelong pension, job security and no real accountability for how well (or poorly) they do their job. The system protects them, and the teachers union fights for them. Remember Michael Hosinski? He was the teacher of the year in 2020 at Jimtown High School in Elkhart, Indiana. In
2022 he attacked a student on camera on school grounds and promptly resigned - the school let him and granted him full benefits. Unlike a pizza place that gets your orders wrong or a grocery store that treats you rudely or a bank that loses your money, you can't take your money elsewhere when your local school fails you. Even if you don't have kids, you're forced to pay. The people of Indiana are paying Michael Hosinski's retirement $$ right now. Good teachers, bad teachers, dangerous teachers, it doesn't matter - you pay or they'll put you in jail.

Says the guy who's not a teacher or behavioral psychologist or pediatrician or has any formal degree in child development or education. Not to be a dick but if you know all the answers then why are you a signarama jockey? Why didn't you work harder and become something bigger? This is what you are telling other people to do.

 

[Gino]

Tsk, tsk, tsk................ haven't you heard the expression "do as I say, not as I do" ??

 

[Boudica]

Teachers don't make that much. They certainly don't get hazard pay when any given day some psycho could shoot them or the children they are responsible for. Hell, the drills are bad enough, but when an actual threat is on campus.... they didn't go to school for years - learning how to combat terrorism in the school. They can't do much in the way of discipline, or grading, or teaching methods - not their fault, it's bureaucracy. See Post #40

My point is, don't blame the teachers - blame the ones that do make a lot of money sitting in a (safe) fancy offices creating all the rules.

 

[JBurton]

Another example - we have 2 people at work who can't show up on time no matter what. 10-15 mins late every single day. They're both young - and when confronted... Both say they have. "time blindness"

They're still employed? Why are you enabling such behavior? Not trying to give you grief, but how many days do they have to come in late before they get reprimanded? Are you guys that hard up for workers?

 

[Gino]

Really, ya have good teachers and profs and ya have terrible ones, just like with students, cops, sign people, shoe sales people, nurses, lawn people, athletes, foot doctors and anything else, except politicians..... they're all bad........ and lawyers. No one seems to be groomed for their jobs anymore and just wanna collect their pay and go home. If a kid can't read, why must the whole class suffer for him/her ?? Ya get a dummy out there like described by Stacey and nothing ya can do about it, but shake your head. Not your fault and if he comes into your area of work, you now hafta watch out for yourself AND him. Is that fair ??

Nope, it's not a fair world and if you don't apply yourself, what do birds and other animals do to their young who are not functioning on all cylinders ?? Toss 'em out. Who takes care of them ?? Some dumb human that thinks it's cute.

 

[Johnny Best]

So this went from Gino having a strange customer to kids in school not learning the right things.
Conclusion: Gino's customer was not raised and taught well and my be autistic.
"Very Interesting" as the german soldier said on Laugh In many years ago.

 

[Boudica]

 

[Notarealsignguy]

They're still employed? Why are you enabling such behavior? Not trying to give you grief, but how many days do they have to come in late before they get reprimanded? Are you guys that hard up for workers?

Sometimes you just have to take the good with the bad. I don't bust people's chops for being a few minutes late but I'm also notoriously late for everything. My wife has to lie about what time we need to be somewhere just to get me there on time.