Boudica
Back to "educational purposes"
My husband had the speed of a snail. I do that too.
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Okay, I think I have a winner here..................................................................................
- Thread starter Gino
- Start date
They're good employees when they're working. One in particular is sick at least once every 2 weeks with "headaches" - unfortunately replacing them costs more than keeping them does.
We're on a time card system...so they don't get paid when they're not here. We've talked to them about it dozens of times... And everytime it's "we'll try to be here on time, it's a generational thing" and blame.the whole generation on it... Which pisses me off more than them being late.
They don't learn though - losing 15 mins of pay every single day doesn't deter them. This year we gave everyone a 2k bonus and $2 an hour raise.. with those 2 being the only exception. They got a $100 grocery card and a cost of living raise, and were told it's due to always being late and having 3x as much no shows as any other employee. And I'm not kidding, it's every single day. And like I said... One lives across the street from me, and I'm 12 mins to get to work - so he must not even leave his house until after his scheduled start time, it's insane. We've had a few younger (under 30) people, not quite this bad... So I don't think it's a whole generational thing, but I do think we're raising everyone to be this way now.
The day after the review... Late again. They don't learn. I'd love to fire them and hire someone new... But ones a CNC operator and the other is a graphic artist. Training someone new isn't easy.
But, it's something we do plan on doing this year. We've given them dozens of chances and talks... Lots of incentives to get better, and they haven't in the 2 years they've worked for us.... So this will be their last year with us! Wish we could a replaced them sooner, but we had hoped they'd learn. They're both great people, good at their jobs for the most part, just the work ethic is non existant.
Notarealsignguy
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^^^ I don't tolerate that kind of stuff as much as I used to. As an adult, your problems are yours, not anyone else's. If they can't figure it out then they need to work for themselves, find a better fitting career or get therapy to learn how to manage their shortcomings. The flipside of diagnosing any sort of ADHD or BPD or any other thing is that many people use it as an excuse rather than do the things that are required of them to function in an acceptable manner. Parents use it the same way. When I worked for companies I was always on time, it took an act of god but being on time is what was expected.
Ikarasu, overdiagnosing is a problem too. I don't know about Canada but in the US, insurance companies require some sort of label to cover the care cost. Doctors that don't take insurance are not quick to make these diagnosis unless all other behavioral change avenues have been exhausted.
Ikarasu, overdiagnosing is a problem too. I don't know about Canada but in the US, insurance companies require some sort of label to cover the care cost. Doctors that don't take insurance are not quick to make these diagnosis unless all other behavioral change avenues have been exhausted.
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Signarama Jockey
New Member
You don't need to be an expert in a field to criticize someone who is. I've never been the Führer of Germany, does that mean I shouldn't criticize? I assume you criticize people who aren't sign people; it's the same concept.
Lol. Go on.
Never said I know all the answers. I don't have a problem with my vocation or my place in life. I do honest work. I do my best for my customers and I give value to them at a fair price. I don't steal, and I don't force people to give me money regardless of the quality of my work. I'm not telling anyone to do anything, I am pointing out that the education system in America is deeply flawed and does not produce results that would be acceptable in any other trade. If you bone up 30% of the signs you produce in my shop, you're fired - government jobs have different standards.
Notarealsignguy
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Again, how is someone screwing up at work a fault of the school system? I got through school fine, my wife got through school, sounds like you did and most everyone else on here. I just don't see this issue when the majority of people in society are educated and functional. At some point, you have to admit to yourself that slicing up decals, weeding, taping and all that stuff we do is not hard or laborious so the pay is not gonna set the world on fire and you will have a tougher time finding the people that are willing to do boring work. It doesn't mean that everyone is a bonehead, it just means this job is not one that people are lining up to do. It's probably easier to find and hire an engineer than it is to find competent sign shop help.
Signarama Jockey
New Member
I get the feeling we are talking past each other. Here's the foundation of my argument:
"According to a study conducted in late April 2015 by the US Department of Education and the National Institute of Literacy, 32 million adults in the United States can't read above a fifth grade level, and 19% of high school graduates can't read."
This is what I am talking about. At the very least, schools should not be graduating people who cannot read. When a school gives a diploma to someone who is illiterate, it is a failure. Compare that to any other job. If you do 19% of your customers' projects wrong, what happens? If Burger King screws up 19% of their orders, what happens? If FedEx loses 19% of the packages people ship, what happens? The difference between a free market and a state funded department is primarily that the free market company actually has to do their job correctly and make their customers happy.
I've never said that my job is particularly hard. I'm not trying to flex and pretend that I work harder or that I'm smarter or any of that. There are teachers out there with way more education than me, and who are smarter and all that; I don't doubt it. But, I'm not talking about how their qualities compare to me, I am talking about how their results compare to mine, and how they don't have the same pressure to perform in order to get paid. Honest work is all about a value exchange, and unlike teachers, the moment I stop performing is the moment I start losing customers.
JBurton
Signtologist
Ok, at least this isn't rewarding such behavior, I'm sure if management didn't make them aware of it, at some point some coworkers let them know...
Notarealsignguy
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I hear you and agree that it is a major issue. I just don't think the problem lies solely on teachers or the schools. Kids learn reading early so I would bet you my lunch money that the parents of many of these struggling kids did not read or do any sort of educational things with their developing children prior to them going to school. We all see disconnected distracted parents in the same large numbers as we see kids. So maybe parents should pull their heads out of their phones, find some responsibility and put some effort into their children? Kids are a product of their environment and I believe this is what everyone is seeing but nobody wants to ever point the finger at themselves so they throw shit at the wall and see what sticks, like it's all the teachers fault. There are kids in elementary school that can't even tie their shoes, good luck with them. It's not their fault, it's parents and it does not get better with time.
I also agree that teachers need to produce just like everyone else. The issue with that is how? A person teaching AP classes will have a better student outcome than the person teaching remedial english even thought the subject matter is much easier. It has more to do with the student then it does with the teacher so using student achievement as a metric of job performance would not be accurate. A crappy teacher could look great with good students and an exceptional teacher might look terrible with bad students.
Let's use graphic design as an example. You could employ a shining star graphic designer but if they are in a layout role in a last minute sign shop that demands 5 minute layouts then that person will likely put out work that appears unskilled. You will never see their actual potential because they are hamstrung doing doing fast garbage all day. Additionally, you may even look at this person as somewhat incompetent for this role when in fact they are not.
Signarama Jockey
New Member
"In 2022, the average public school teacher salary was $66,397"
Most teachers are signing contracts for 180 - 185 days of work every year
"A typical teacher works about 54 hours a week [5 day period]"
So, let's do the math. If a teacher works 54 hours every 5 days, and a teacher works 185 days, that means they work a total of (185/5 = 37, 37x54 = 1998) 1998 hours in a calendar year.
$66,397 / 1998 hours = $33.23 per hour.
Plus they get pensions for life after they retire - ranging from $2500 a month in Texas to an average of $4,000 in California. Plus they get healthcare.
Notarealsignguy
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Here's another hypothetical, measuring police performance. Is a cop better if they arrest more people or are they better if they arrest less people? Is the cop who patrols the hood where crime is high worse than the one who gets the low crime affluent area? Technically, the guy in the hood is doing a bad job if the crime rates are high, correct?
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Notarealsignguy
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No. That is instructional days, not working days. Here is some insight
I Get Paid for 180 Days of Work Each Year, but I Actually Work More Than 250
It's a full-time job with part-time pay.
www.weareteachers.com
Stacey K
I like making signs
Up here in my area the job market is starting to tighten up. Three people hired at the same time at my son's workplace. One got fired two weeks ago. One was denied an upgrade in position. BOTH of them because they call in sick and can't make it to work on time. If it was a year ago - the company would have put up with it, but there's less jobs and more people to choose from now. We just lost 400 jobs 1/2 mile from my son's workplace so plenty to fill those two spots.
The lazy, late, call in sick people are naturally weeding their way out of a job.
The lazy, late, call in sick people are naturally weeding their way out of a job.
Signarama Jockey
New Member
I feel like police will complicate the issue. Is there another job you can think of that would make your point? I feel like I'd take the discussion on a tangent if we're talking about police.
I saw that link. The 54 hours a week would include the occasional weekend day that make up the 250 the author claims. Considering that teachers have a 9 month contract, and that 9 months is 270 days, I am very skeptical of the 250 claim. The author clearly wants to advocate for themselves. But, let's put it to the test.No. That is instructional days, not working days. Here is some insight
I Get Paid for 180 Days of Work Each Year, but I Actually Work More Than 250
It's a full-time job with part-time pay.
9 months is about 270 days. Let's say that there are 10 hours every day that are suitable for working, that's 2,700 hours that are possible working hours in a 9 month period.
This author claims that they work 250 days, and you are suggesting that this means they work more hours. If teachers work 54 hours every 5 days, then... (250/5 = 50, 50x54 = 2700). Weird... 2,700 hours.
So, if this is the case, then you are suggesting that teachers work 10 hours every single day for 9 months straight. I call BS.
Texas_Signmaker
Very Active Signmaker
I highly doubt 19% of high school graduates can't read. One in 5 can't read??? That makes no sense.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
What I'd like to know sign jockey is..... how does your boss feel about you f*ckin' around on a forum for like 90 minutes not getting ANYTHING done. Is this a trait you picked up in school or from your parents ?? Why does your boss hafta pay you for this nonsense ?? Should he fire you because you're goofing off almost 25% of a day ?? It's one thing if you're an owner, but quite different when the owner is not you, but you're innocently still collecting from the guy.
That's not accounting for the time you're off in googleland collecting facts and sh!t.
That's not accounting for the time you're off in googleland collecting facts and sh!t.
Notarealsignguy
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That's probably about right, Geneva was a teacher, maybe she will chime in? I know down here they don't have much of the summer off.
Measuring performance, the police are similar to teachers in terms of measuring performance but we can use doctors. Would a doctor that diagnosis more problems and prescribes more meds be a better performer than one who doesn't? What about one who orders more tests? Isn't that also a function of the type of patient and demographics? So measure them in the amount of patients they see in a day? That's logical right? That's how they do it now. How good of care do you get when the Dr has 5 minutes to see you? How much gets missed from not having adequate time to sit with patients? So the Dr who sets the world on fire seeing 40 people a day is a rockstar but misses how many ailments and misdiagnoses/over prescribes how much because of this? The doctors that don't see their allotment because they spend too much time with a patient are considered poor at their job but are they? It's just not black and white. Nothing is.
Notarealsignguy
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My boss gets mad but he's an asshole.
JBurton
Signtologist
I think she will refute the 'teachers get rich all the time' statement, but confirm that this is the typical attitude, that is teachers failing all of us constantly. (hopefully she gives me a gold star for grammar and spelling though!)
It's not that they can't read words, they got that locked down, they can't comprehend more than a pair of thoughts in a sentence that they have to read. Remember when the teacher gave you a statement, 'billy's in first, roger's behind tina, tina is a tonka truck, who won the race?' Yeah, no, these graduates can't keep all 3 things for their brain to analyze. They aren't illiterate, just failing at reading comprehension. Why do you think tiktok videos only slap single sentences for you to read at a time?
Notarealsignguy
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That's human nature. You never worked with an older person that couldn't keep their head straight? I've worked with more older people that could not read or write more than young people.