Josh Klassen
New Member
Has anyone heard of optically centering your layout? If so should it be higher or lower than center and how much?
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Optically Centered?
- Thread starter Josh Klassen
- Start date
shoresigns
New Member
I would hazard a guess that this refers to the principle that the proper way to centre a line of text vertically on a sign is that the capital letters would be equal distance from the top and bottom. This is correct, as opposed to including tails that hang below the baseline in lowercase letters. Those should always be ignored for the purposes of vertical centering.
This principle also applies to other things like logos. For example, if you put the logo for RenoMark onto a square panel, you would centre based on the optical centre, which is in the centre of the circular part of the logo. The actual centre of the logo is more to the right.
This principle also applies to other things like logos. For example, if you put the logo for RenoMark onto a square panel, you would centre based on the optical centre, which is in the centre of the circular part of the logo. The actual centre of the logo is more to the right.
rfulford
New Member
The rule of thumb for optically centering a photograph in matte I learned in school was to use absolute center for the left and right and to nudge the center point up 1/10th of half the height. For example, the optical center of a 20"x16" layout would be 10" from either the left or right and 8.8" from the bottom. This is a simplification however. There is a more correct method that also accounts for the size of the opening in the matte but the above rule works pretty well.
SignProPlus-Chip
New Member
EDIT:
Apparently since I learned this 25 years ago, the terms "optical center" and visual center" have been rather blurred (we were always taught them as two very different things). With that in mind, hopefully what I mention below still makes sense.
_____________________________________________________
Your confusing "visual center" with "optically centering" something.
Italicized text will sometimes need to be moved to the left or right so it feels centered to the eye even though mechanically, it will measure as off-center. A similar sort of principle is used in kerning text. This is optically centering something. It's what may be technically incorrect, but feels right to the eye.
The natural focus where the eye falls on a page is the "visual center". This is when you get into rule of thirds etc...
Linky: http://desktoppub.about.com/od/designprinciples/l/aa_balance4.htm
Apparently since I learned this 25 years ago, the terms "optical center" and visual center" have been rather blurred (we were always taught them as two very different things). With that in mind, hopefully what I mention below still makes sense.
_____________________________________________________
Your confusing "visual center" with "optically centering" something.
Italicized text will sometimes need to be moved to the left or right so it feels centered to the eye even though mechanically, it will measure as off-center. A similar sort of principle is used in kerning text. This is optically centering something. It's what may be technically incorrect, but feels right to the eye.
The natural focus where the eye falls on a page is the "visual center". This is when you get into rule of thirds etc...
Linky: http://desktoppub.about.com/od/designprinciples/l/aa_balance4.htm
cpgraphix
New Member
I agree with RJSSIGNS, if it lioks right it is right. How do you learn to design from a text book, it is something that is in your eye, not a book. Although their are certain rules/guidelines for using negative space, but once again i believe that is born in your creativity. Maybe some people should go back to Actual Sign Painting and not rely so much on rules, or what they learned from a teacher with no background in Sign Painting and only has a background with designing with a computer.
SignProPlus-Chip
New Member
What a close minded comment.
First, you can learn something new from ANYONE.
Second, "visual center" is universal. It doesn't matter if it's a classic oil painting, magazine layout, or a sign... it exists, deal with it.
Yes, Virginia, you can even learn design principles from reading a book too. Now being able to implement what you learn, yes, that's a different thing altogether. Nothing beats getting your hands dirty, so to speak.
If you cannot see that design basics and any type of creative process are inextricably intertwined, then you need to expand your mind.
First, you can learn something new from ANYONE.
Second, "visual center" is universal. It doesn't matter if it's a classic oil painting, magazine layout, or a sign... it exists, deal with it.
Yes, Virginia, you can even learn design principles from reading a book too. Now being able to implement what you learn, yes, that's a different thing altogether. Nothing beats getting your hands dirty, so to speak.
If you cannot see that design basics and any type of creative process are inextricably intertwined, then you need to expand your mind.
cpgraphix
New Member
Why do I have to Follow these said "RULES" to create a good Sign Layout/Logo..
The way I see it, there are no rules to Ones Personal ART, be it Oil Painting, Sign Painting, Pinstriping, Vinyl or Digital Printing.... If everyone followed the so called "RULES" there would be no Variation from artist to artist or work to work...
Believe it or not, most ARTISTS do not like being told they have to follow certain rules...
Creative people should think outside the box and follow rules of there own. How else would we be considered Creative or ARTISTS.....
And in no way am I saying we don't learn from other people, (I learned this Trade from my Grandfather and Father who didn't know what a computer was) but we take what we have learned and we create something of our OWN, with our own mind and our Own Rules...
Also, I understand Visual Center exists.. I'm not saying it doesn't...
The way I see it, there are no rules to Ones Personal ART, be it Oil Painting, Sign Painting, Pinstriping, Vinyl or Digital Printing.... If everyone followed the so called "RULES" there would be no Variation from artist to artist or work to work...
Believe it or not, most ARTISTS do not like being told they have to follow certain rules...
Creative people should think outside the box and follow rules of there own. How else would we be considered Creative or ARTISTS.....
And in no way am I saying we don't learn from other people, (I learned this Trade from my Grandfather and Father who didn't know what a computer was) but we take what we have learned and we create something of our OWN, with our own mind and our Own Rules...
Also, I understand Visual Center exists.. I'm not saying it doesn't...
Craig Sjoquist
New Member
Josh there is a simple guide line for optical or visual center, which you can read about in Mike Stevens ..Mastering layout.
Briefly a natural layout formula 46 % of the copy is above center, your eyes will notice the difference on anything you look at.
There is alot more to this so PLEASE read the book, I've normally stopped telling this because few people want to read about what they need to improve on, but your fairly new here & want to learn so will gladly help.
CP graphix if you read this book you will find that it is based on the NATURAL layout & it applies to anything that requires it to look correct or really nice, just the book was created for us sign people. & yes it is not layed in concrete must follow rules.
Also noticed your avatar has pinstriping & looks nice you would be surprised how the reading this book will help create a good flow in your work if your not doing this already or even if ya are it is a awesome book & explains a great deal more then ya think.
Sure wish I had gotten more education in design & art in younger years I'd be alot better off now, bit of stubbornness, wrong advise & cash flow did not help
Briefly a natural layout formula 46 % of the copy is above center, your eyes will notice the difference on anything you look at.
There is alot more to this so PLEASE read the book, I've normally stopped telling this because few people want to read about what they need to improve on, but your fairly new here & want to learn so will gladly help.
CP graphix if you read this book you will find that it is based on the NATURAL layout & it applies to anything that requires it to look correct or really nice, just the book was created for us sign people. & yes it is not layed in concrete must follow rules.
Also noticed your avatar has pinstriping & looks nice you would be surprised how the reading this book will help create a good flow in your work if your not doing this already or even if ya are it is a awesome book & explains a great deal more then ya think.
Sure wish I had gotten more education in design & art in younger years I'd be alot better off now, bit of stubbornness, wrong advise & cash flow did not help
cpgraphix
New Member
I own Mikes book on layout, and have read it quite a fee times. I agree it is a good informative book with lots of helpful tips.
Maybe its my background but i feel all sign people should put in their dues and not just buy a bundle package and open up shop. Within the past few years alone their has been nunerous shops in my area open by people with no background in this industry..
I just don't follow rules all the time (i am sure many other stripers and painters will say the same thing), I like to create new layouts and graphics that are outside the box. Keeps me seperate from all the other blah shops. With the ability to hand letter and pinstripe gives me the ability to create new artistic things that many other shops can't (even with a computer)
Maybe its my background but i feel all sign people should put in their dues and not just buy a bundle package and open up shop. Within the past few years alone their has been nunerous shops in my area open by people with no background in this industry..
I just don't follow rules all the time (i am sure many other stripers and painters will say the same thing), I like to create new layouts and graphics that are outside the box. Keeps me seperate from all the other blah shops. With the ability to hand letter and pinstripe gives me the ability to create new artistic things that many other shops can't (even with a computer)
Rick
Certified Enneadecagon Designer
The correct term might be "PRINCIPLES" not "rules"
We see a lot of poop work on this site... is that rule breaking or poor use
of the principles of art, design or layout? That means there is no bad art or design...
but there is.
Art (and design) uses principles. even when you are breaking them... I'm sure you were taught
"principles" because seeing your pinstriping (which is awesome by the way), you are
practicing a few of them. I will hold my opinion on the signage layouts.
Every "designer" and "artist" works within these principles and they should learn
every principle, but whether they learn them of not, they are at the very least haphazardly
practicing them.
The computer has nothing to do with these rules... it's just a tool...
Rick
Certified Enneadecagon Designer
My Opinion is:
Learn optical center mechanically (like in Mike Stevens Book)...
Once you get the hang of it and your eye gets used to it,
practice without the guides...
Remember, there is vertical and horizontal visual center. I made
the mistake this week of not adjusting my horizontal center on a
script typeface and every time I looked at that panel it stuck out
like a sore thumb.
Learn optical center mechanically (like in Mike Stevens Book)...
Once you get the hang of it and your eye gets used to it,
practice without the guides...
Remember, there is vertical and horizontal visual center. I made
the mistake this week of not adjusting my horizontal center on a
script typeface and every time I looked at that panel it stuck out
like a sore thumb.
Rick
Certified Enneadecagon Designer
I guess I better post the elements/principles of art and design
for those who might benefit...
The video is a quickie version... I posted it before...
The PDF is more intense, but only really scratches the surface...
[video=youtube;hH446lgDrW8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH446lgDrW8[/video]
for those who might benefit...
The video is a quickie version... I posted it before...
The PDF is more intense, but only really scratches the surface...
[video=youtube;hH446lgDrW8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH446lgDrW8[/video]
SignManiac
New Member
Screw the rules, I've always done what I wanted. I'm a cowboy that will never conform. I see things....
petrosgraphics
New Member
years ago, rough patterns were made to layout letters on a building.
if it did not look right to your eyes you made the changes in kerning as well*
as the centering of the letters in space provided.... there were many times
in laying out cut out letters on a sign panel i would stand on the bench and look*
down on the letters and make nec. changes..*
* * * what looks right, is right. (to you)..
if it did not look right to your eyes you made the changes in kerning as well*
as the centering of the letters in space provided.... there were many times
in laying out cut out letters on a sign panel i would stand on the bench and look*
down on the letters and make nec. changes..*
* * * what looks right, is right. (to you)..
Rick
Certified Enneadecagon Designer
This non-comformist/rule breaking reminds me of my punk days...
hanging out at this punk venue one of my buddies yelled out
"were so rebellious"... problem was, everyone looked the same with
green, orange or purple mohawks and spiky hair, well except one older
gentleman in yuppie wear and groomed hair, that older gentleman rocked!
I realized then I looked like an idiot.
Another time me, the first wife and my kid were at the market...
some young teens said "were bumming out the old people.." I was 31
at the time... then I look at the patches on his jacket and mocked his
poseur wear by singing a string of songs that related to his patches while
doing my version of the skinhead moonstomp. Darn kids!
I used to go to a lot of car shows... especially rat rod shows. A sea or tats
and pompadours... where rule breaking is supposed to be the main theme...
and a porky old guy like me does not fit in... but I thought thats the point.
It's all relative and I'm not impressed anymore, well, except for the cowboy thing...
hanging out at this punk venue one of my buddies yelled out
"were so rebellious"... problem was, everyone looked the same with
green, orange or purple mohawks and spiky hair, well except one older
gentleman in yuppie wear and groomed hair, that older gentleman rocked!
I realized then I looked like an idiot.
Another time me, the first wife and my kid were at the market...
some young teens said "were bumming out the old people.." I was 31
at the time... then I look at the patches on his jacket and mocked his
poseur wear by singing a string of songs that related to his patches while
doing my version of the skinhead moonstomp. Darn kids!
I used to go to a lot of car shows... especially rat rod shows. A sea or tats
and pompadours... where rule breaking is supposed to be the main theme...
and a porky old guy like me does not fit in... but I thought thats the point.
It's all relative and I'm not impressed anymore, well, except for the cowboy thing...
Josh Klassen
New Member
thanks
thanks for all your thoughts everyone! Gonna check out that book.
thanks for all your thoughts everyone! Gonna check out that book.