PVC For Outside

[vman]

Hello,

I'm getting so many mixed messages about PVC being used for small outdoor signs (18x13 for instance). Some say you can, others say no. Yet, as a person in construction for many years, I've used AZEK for decks, for trim and large panels on houses with no problem. AZEK is in fact PVC. So what's the deal? Why would it be sold to be used in the most extreme places, (such as dormers, sashes, and other trim) unless it performed well? Does the size of the sign matter? I'm v-grooving them by the way. Thanks for the help anyone!

 

[Pat Whatley]

If you're using sign grade pvc it's not treated with the same anti-oxidants & stabilizers that Azek is. Azek is also a lot denser than usual sign grade material. Think about it....PVC sheets are pretty soft, PVC pipe is rock hard.

Sign PVC will become brittle and warp in no time outdoors unless it's painted to protect it from the sun.

Now, if you want to ask me why my local sign supplier doesn't carry 4x8 sheets of solid core UV stable PVC that's a whole other conversation.

 

[MikePro]

Routed HDU foam with a sprayed hard-coating for the win!:Welcome::signs101:

 

[skyhigh]

Now, if you want to ask me why my local sign supplier doesn't carry 4x8 sheets of solid core UV stable PVC that's a whole other conversation.

Ahhhh, hey Pat...... Why dosen't your local sign suppier carry 4x8 sheets of solid core UV stable PVC?

 

[visual800]

back a few years ago when PVC hit the market I started using it NO PROBLEMS. I usually route plaques or route out letters. Well this year Ive had to replace 2 signs I did because they started warping within 2 weeks after install and these were 3/4" pvc. I called the supplier and sent pics of the signage to them....and then of course, as usual the BS started....

"Well did you specifically order interior or exterior PVC".....uh WTF!? I had no idea there was 2 kinds and was never asked when I placed order if I wanted interior or exterior.

So without the help of the distributor here is what I suggest. If you are to paint pvc a dark color make damn sure it aint facing west or south. Ive got tons of pvc out there over the years and NOTHING has happened to them all this time.

I honestly belive that these companies start out using great products and then later find crap products an start sneaking them to us and WE end up being the gerbils to test them and when they fail distributor doesnt care

 

[Gino]

Welcome from PA.....................

 

[Alti-Plotter]

:Welcome: from Switzerland.

I honestly belive that these companies start out using great products and then later find crap products an start sneaking them to us and WE end up being the gerbils to test them and when they fail distributor doesnt care

+1

 

[The Big Squeegee]

Welcome from OK

 

[andy]

back a few years ago when PVC hit the market I started using it NO PROBLEMS. I usually route plaques or route out letters. Well this year Ive had to replace 2 signs I did because they started warping within 2 weeks after install and these were 3/4" pvc. I called the supplier and sent pics of the signage to them....and then of course, as usual the BS started....

"Well did you specifically order interior or exterior PVC".....uh WTF!? I had no idea there was 2 kinds and was never asked when I placed order if I wanted interior or exterior.

So without the help of the distributor here is what I suggest. If you are to paint pvc a dark color make damn sure it aint facing west or south. Ive got tons of pvc out there over the years and NOTHING has happened to them all this time.

I honestly belive that these companies start out using great products and then later find crap products an start sneaking them to us and WE end up being the gerbils to test them and when they fail distributor doesnt care

When your supplier is buying from the PVC manufacturer they will be given a menu... a range of different grades of sheet starting with the cheapest and ending with solid, unfoamed 100% PVC.

If you are using 3/4" (19mm) PVC I'm pretty sure you're dealing with a foamed product. If you've suddenly found that everything is bowing and warping then it is absolutely clear what has happened, your supplier has quietly restocked with a lower density substrate, a PVC sheet with a LOT higher air content than you are used to.

These lower density PVC substrates are very attractive to suppliers such as yours; on passing inspection they look almost identical to the more expensive higher densities yet they are much cheaper because a large percentage of the sheet volume is made up of air. The air inside your PVC substrates is expanding .. this leads to the bowing you can see. If your signs are mounted to walls and such like the rear side is in permanent shade, the front in hot sun. This creates a temperature difference which makes bowing even more noticable.

If you use a lot of sheet substrate you need to be on your guard... we've refused to accept pallets of material because some suppliers were trying to sneak through cheap low grade substitutes whilst expecting to charge full, high grade prices.

 

[visual800]

andy you would be correct we stopped using a local supplier cause i could tell their sheets were not as dense and didnt route as well as grimcos. So far I have no noticed grimcos pvc was less dense but it sure is warping.

I hate to be an a** but I would give a left one is ALL the pvc that these companies had in stock would just start warping! and I wished I was on the other line at the distributors office answering their call....man that would be awesome I could tell them some of the crap they have been telling folks

"nope, no one else is having this issue in north America"

"It must the temp in your warehouse, nothing has changed with our product"

"im sorry but we dodnt know how you have been storing your product therefore there will be no refund for you"

 

[klemgraphics]

So what is a good density for exterior signs?? And should the sales people at the suppliers know this information? I have a couple of upcoming projects that I plan to use pvc on, they will be fully painted but I don't want to have problems with it down the road.

 

[Gino]

So what is a good density for exterior signs?? And should the sales people at the suppliers know this information? I have a couple of upcoming projects that I plan to use pvc on, they will be fully painted but I don't want to have problems with it down the road.

Wood or metal products. Plastics and pvc's are not truly an outdoor material. They repel weather and will not bio-degrade, but they are not made for exterior use in our industry. They'll either bust form cold or warp from heat.

Ever see a plastic plate holding meat in the freezer section of your grocery store ?? Pick it up and bend it and I'll bet you it will snap quickly. It's made to do that. Now if you can find an old telephone booth with a plastic telephone, you can't break that in extreme cold. Because it's designed not to. However, the same type of product in our industry has different specs and won't last unless you go way out of your norm and try to make it usable. Usually, it's just better to go with the proper substrate right off the bat.

 

[klemgraphics]

Gotcha Gino, MDO to the rescue!

 

[visual800]

MDo not an option for signage down here. cant route letters or route into it for plaques. PVC is a great option for signs, as I said we have been using for years with NO problems. i hate large coporations when they do crap like this

 

[Gino]

MDo not an option for signage down here. cant route letters or route into it for plaques. PVC is a great option for signs, as I said we have been using for years with NO problems. i hate large coporations when they do crap like this

Unless I'm missing something in your two prior posts, you were pretty much putting down most PVC products, unless you ordered it this way or that way, the sign is facing a particular direction or using these for cut out letters or................... and the list of exceptions goes on.

The OP.... or also in this case, klem, was asking about flat stock sign, I believe. In order to stay flat and not have to worry about taking a compass with you when installing these signs, MDO or composite metal substrates has no exception connected to them.... other then prepping them correctly and going about your business in a professional way.

 

[visual800]

well unfortunately Gino I would prefer NOT to have to worry about buying materials and wondering what direction they are facing either when I install them but it is what it is.

After replacing an $1800.00 sign at my cost which I would prefer the distributor pay for but we all know that doesnt happen. If it was not for all of us signguys sharing our info with others we would never know these things

 

[andy]

Visual,

Can you get Excel/Gloss finish PVC in 3/4"?

If you can get this material you should switch to it straight away and reject any subsequent PVC deliveries which are NOT of this grade.

You will find that Excel/ Gloss PVC is a much better substrate with a good density and excellent painting characteristics. It is more expensive but worth every penny IMO.

The beauty of using only this grade of PVC is that you close off all substitution routes; Gloss PVC is density dependent; if you cut back the density you lose the surface finish. As far as is practical this PVC is "fake" proof.

If you can switch to this material it will be instantly obvious to anyone in your shop when a low grade delivery is being attempted; if it ain't Gloss finish it's not what you ordered... and there is NO way your supplier can argue against this.

Don't spread your purchases over numerous suppliers... we buy 95% of our plastics from just one supplier because it places us in their top 5% of customers as measured by money spent with them. When your supplier sees that you spend a LOT of money with them every month they are much more inclined to do whatever it takes to keep you happy.

 

[klemgraphics]

??? Would it be a bad idea to use 1/2" PVC from N Glantz on a 4x6 sign? 2-sided (one panel per side w/ treated lumber between for support) between 2 posts? This would be fully painted front & back facing E/W.

I just really prefer not to mess with MDO and the customer is concerned about rotting which is what happened to the previous sign.

 

[Gino]

Then, why not go with Alumalite ?? Instead of using PVC, use an aluminum composite substrate. No rot, no rust, no warping, no brittleness, no nothing to worry about.

 

[klemgraphics]

Then, why not go with Alumalite ?? Instead of using PVC, use an aluminum composite substrate. No rot, no rust, no warping, no brittleness, no nothing to worry about.

If it was rectangle I would, I should have mentioned that.

It will be a custom shape and only attached on the sides at the posts. I just never cared for the look of exposed edges on alumalite, or am I missing something.