Replacing pan face with flat...

[Stacey K]

I have a good customer of mine who wants her pan faces replaced. I originally told her I don't do lifts and I'm not UL certified so she would need to contact XXX instead. She just sent me all the dimensions for "sleeves" I'm like what is a sleeve? She wants me to cut her regular poly in place of the pan faces. I said that's just not something I do, you can call XXX. She keeps arguing me that an electrician is putting new LED wiring in and she's going to install them so nothing can come back on me.

But - that's not the way I see it...am I being difficult?

4 signs at 67"x48"
2 signs at 67"x60"

I think I read from someone one time part of the pan face is what makes it sturdier and if you just put a flat piece in it could fall out. The business is also on a state highway so if there's an issue and she didn't get permits and I have no UL insurance...I'm liable, correct? (I have regular sign business insurance but I'm no electrician)

Thanks!

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Most cases whoever installs it is liable. I'd make those signs and hand it to her. It's not a huge issue doing flat for those size signs, just need to be mindful of hotspots in lighting and make sure you have at least 1.5" retainer. 1" retainers would be too small for flat. Pans are not THAT expensive. You could probably get all 4 signs delivered for $3k and decorate them yourself.

 

[Stacey K]

Most cases whoever installs it is liable. I'd make those signs and hand it to her. It's not a huge issue doing flat for those size signs, just need to be mindful of hotspots in lighting and make sure you have at least 1.5" retainer. 1" retainers would be too small for flat. Pans are not THAT expensive. You could probably get all 4 signs delivered for $3k and decorate them yourself.

What kind of material do I use?

 

[Gino]

Pan face certainly makes it stronger..... MUCH stronger, but pan faces were developed so the old 7-up, coke, pepsi and automotive places could make a cheaper 4" can and to get the faces far enough away from the fluorescent tubes, they went to pan faces to avoid the hot spots. Now, she's putting in LEDs, which are brighter, yet. She is gonna have horrible hot spots. Also, if the signs were designed for pan faces, she should stay with pan faces.

That's like saying I have a tesla, but I can't afford a new engine. I'm gonna put a VW motor in it. It'll work, cause I can't do it the right way.

You're not being difficult, you're being honest and sensible.

edit: I just saw your size requests. Like tex said, make sure if you go flat, the retainer is 1.5" or 2". If less, she should make adapters. You can use modified acrylic or poly-carb

 

[MikePro]

usually the point of a thermalformed face, is to offset the plastic from the illumination source in order to diffuse the lighting.
you CAN simply use flat faces, BUT chances are the sign is super slim and you will see hotspots.

we have "rigged it" in the past, by bending a frame to mimic the formed returns of an existing face and tape+rivoting it to the polycarbonate.
...or we simply replaced the flourescent tubing with an appropriate high-spread LED to compensate for potential hotspots and used a flat face.

 

[Gino]

usually the point of a thermalformed face, is to offset the plastic from the illumination source in order to diffuse the lighting.
you CAN simply use flat faces, BUT chances are the sign is super slim and you will see hotspots.

we have "rigged it" in the past, by bending a frame to mimic the formed returns of an existing face and tape+rivoting it to the polycarbonate.
...or we simply replaced the flourescent tubing with an appropriate high-spread LED to compensate for potential hotspots and used a flat face.

That all makes a lotta sense, but wouldn't that cost the customer more than what's called for after it's all finished ??

We had a shopping mall where we simply turned the LEDs sideways as if they were pointing toward the sides of the box, so it lessened the light facing the outwards.

 

[MikePro]

you can diffuse that way, yes, unless its a double-sided sign then you're going to lose a LOT of illumination by simply edge-lighting it like a VapeShop/Bodega window.

 

[Gino]

you can diffuse that way, yes, unless its a double-sided sign then you're going to lose a LOT of illumination by simply edge-lighting it like a VapeShop/Bodega window.

Get a load of this. It WAS double sided. However, it had a solid barrier down the middle, so we hadda do everything in duplicate. Light did not penetrate the metal barrier. Whomever made it, did it on purpose, but I can't figure out why. That's why, when I first looked at it, lights that were out, didn't match on both sides. I looked at one side and knew the length and how many retrofits would be needed. When we got to it and opened it up, we could only do one side. Hadda reorder the same thing

 

[MikePro]

doing weird things, yes you can illuminate a cabinet
....but it never turns out the way you'd hope/expect from direct illumination, especially if there is indirect light sources/pollution like street lights and/or other signs ....at that point, you may as well have just put a 40w bulb in the center of the cabinet and called it a discount.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Y'all getting too in the weeds.

Stace, I'd just get the polycarbonate off the reel stock from glantz or grimco. They'll really only have one thickness in stock appropriate for the width of the reel. Call up commercial plastics in Republic, MO... They are well priced for pan faces and you wouldn't have to make them.

 

[MikePro]

weed is the best

 

[ddarlak]

sounds like you are being difficult.

UL has nothing to do with replacing faces, as to the permit, it's only on you if you install them, so dont.

make the faces, warn her that there will be hot spots and who ever is replacing the lights with LEDs certainly can put the new faces in since they removed the old ones.

make $

 

[Stacey K]

Thanks everyone for the advice, extremely helpful! I'll pass on the retainer info and hotspot info. I guess it's not as big of a deal as I was thinking. I was also thinking I would have to apply the vinyl in my living room because I can only get 48" signboards in my basement, but the material is flexible so it should be OK.

Talking things through and the answers appear! LOL

 

[Function Graphics]

I have a good customer of mine who wants her pan faces replaced. I originally told her I don't do lifts and I'm not UL certified so she would need to contact XXX instead. She just sent me all the dimensions for "sleeves" I'm like what is a sleeve? She wants me to cut her regular poly in place of the pan faces. I said that's just not something I do, you can call XXX. She keeps arguing me that an electrician is putting new LED wiring in and she's going to install them so nothing can come back on me.

But - that's not the way I see it...am I being difficult?

4 signs at 67"x48"
2 signs at 67"x60"

I think I read from someone one time part of the pan face is what makes it sturdier and if you just put a flat piece in it could fall out. The business is also on a state highway so if there's an issue and she didn't get permits and I have no UL insurance...I'm liable, correct? (I have regular sign business insurance but I'm no electrician)

Thanks!

Here's my 2 cents, replacing a pan face with a flat panel polycarb can work as long as the cabinet is deep enough, otherwise you'll see "stripes" caused by the bulbs if it now lays too close to the face. LEDs are small enough that may no longer be an issue. For large sign faces, we use what we call a "hanging channel". its basically a 1" strip of polycarbonate same length of the sign, we pop rivet it to the top, front of the face. This piece slides into the channel of the top lip. This allows the sign face to hang a bit versus sitting its entire weight on the bottom lip. Winds can blow and that sucker will "hook" and unlikely blow out. Hope that makes sense. Sign maker since 2003. Get you money and Good luck!

 

[brdesign]

I have a good customer of mine who wants her pan faces replaced. I originally told her I don't do lifts and I'm not UL certified so she would need to contact XXX instead. She just sent me all the dimensions for "sleeves" I'm like what is a sleeve? She wants me to cut her regular poly in place of the pan faces. I said that's just not something I do, you can call XXX. She keeps arguing me that an electrician is putting new LED wiring in and she's going to install them so nothing can come back on me.

But - that's not the way I see it...am I being difficult?

4 signs at 67"x48"
2 signs at 67"x60"

I think I read from someone one time part of the pan face is what makes it sturdier and if you just put a flat piece in it could fall out. The business is also on a state highway so if there's an issue and she didn't get permits and I have no UL insurance...I'm liable, correct? (I have regular sign business insurance but I'm no electrician)

Thanks!

Most companies I've worked for have a waiver for situations like this, for the customer to sign, stating the customer is responsible for the installation and obtaining any necessary permits. Most jurisdictions usually go after whoever installed the sign if it was not properly permitted.

 

[Gino]

Most companies I've worked for have a waiver for situations like this, for the customer to sign, stating the customer is responsible for the installation and obtaining any necessary permits. Most jurisdictions usually go after whoever installed the sign if it was not properly permitted.

While that might work in some instances, ya really can't rely on a signed/dated waiver. When you have someone sign a waiver, generally you are already admitting it is wrong to do, therefore, by them signing such a paper, just means you're gonna take their money and not give a sh!t. What happens is, you, being the professional, should know right from wrong, but you're still gonna do it wrong. There are times.... and then there are NOT times, waivers will work, but their not a cover-up to do something wrong, just to make a quick buck, not to mention the reputation you'll get if word gets out that YOU made the sign which failed.