Solvent vs Latex.

[Vital Designs]

Our CJV30-130 just died last week.
We were forced to make a change, and make it quick.
For a long time the long term goal was to switch to latex for us. Simply because of the amount of vehicle graphics and wraps we do and the demand for quick turn around.
The mimakis are basically bullet proof. In the 3 years we had ours it let me down maybe 2 times. It was easy to use and always reliable. Had it not been for the speed and out gas times we would have gone mimaki again.
We ended up getting the HP L360 ive been lusting over the past few years, along with a 64" graphtec cutter. As our design, production and install guy it has made things a lot faster for me (i can be printing job B while cutting job A) since before our cjv was both our sole printer and cutter. The HP has its quirks i'm trying to get used to. I'm not a huge fan of the loading process (it tends to grab the lead edge of the media off of the backing paper and jam up), but that could be user error at this point since i only have a few hours of production run on it.

Overall i really like the HP, and once i get colors adjusted for some of our bigger clients i'm sure work flow will speed up. Over all i think it ultimately depends what you do and if you need that instant cure or if you don't mind waiting the time to let things outgas.

Cut an inch of the media off the leading edge leaving just the inch of backing paper exposed. Your loading issue will be resolved.

 

[rjssigns]

For me to even consider a latex, HP would have to have a second media path. One where I can use the "tails" from other jobs. IIRC you need about a 42" long piece minimum for an HP.

IMO HP's are set up for the shop that does nothing but run full rolls. That's not where I make my money.

Would also need to simplify media loading overall. I run both and don't care for the HP loading.

Only advantage with HP is the instant drying.

 

[myront]

... have you tried to deal with directly at HP to help solve your issues?

We spent two days with the HP rep on installation and the basics in using. The rep actually told us that he was color blind therefore could not see that reds were too orange and blue was purple. Tried several of there profiles as well as others. The closest we could get was using 16 pass.

The matter is out of my hands anyway. I'm not the owner of the business nor the print tech. I design and drop the file into the RIP and they handle it from there. HP rep suggested we create our own color palette instead of he default or pantones. Unacceptable.

 

[reQ]

We spent two days with the HP rep on installation and the basics in using. The rep actually told us that he was color blind therefore could not see

I am bad... bad person but i could not stop laughing! HP is such a troll... sending color blind tech to set up color profiles geeeez

 

[FrankW]

I am bad... bad person but i could not stop laughing! HP is such a troll... sending color blind tech to set up color profiles geeeez

I'm bad too.

 

[FrankW]

IMO HP's are set up for the shop that does nothing but run full rolls. That's not where I make my money.

Using sheets for digital printing can be a problem because of dust and finger prints. I know no-one printing on sheets on any roll printer.

Would also need to simplify media loading overall.

Is completely simple. It have a media feeder, it checks for skew and do feed adjustment itself. With the Latex 280/104", I have loaded Canvas Rolls completely without help. But for shure, its easier to load a 500 instead of a 300.

 

[rjssigns]

Using sheets for digital printing can be a problem because of dust and finger prints. I know no-one printing on sheets on any roll printer.

Not using sheets. Just using unprinted drops from 54" rolls. I just printed a 40" 40" job on 54" material which left a nice scrap to make money with. Anything the size of a legal sheet of paper gets saved and used. Never had an issue with fingerprints since I usually wear gloves when loading. We also use the drops for color checks.

HP's are made for production shops. I'm not printing roll after roll all day long and HP's loading system doesn't fit my attention deficit disorder style of doing things or the type of products I make.

Matter of fact I could probably get by with a 15 or 20 inch printer if I focused on what makes the most money.



Is completely simple. It have a media feeder, it checks for skew and do feed adjustment itself. With the Latex 280/104", I have loaded Canvas Rolls completely without help. But for shure, its easier to load a 500 instead of a 300.

If the 500 series can feed something as small as super tabloid(330mm x 457mm) I'd take a look.

 

[SkyHighJK]

I am bad... bad person but i could not stop laughing! HP is such a troll... sending color blind tech to set up color profiles geeeez

Lol, I laughed at that too! But I think that HP doesn't actually send the reps out directly for installation/training -- it's a Rep from the Dealer that sold the machine (and those dealers go through training, etc. with HP).
Either way, kinda funny, and sad. But, mostly funny!

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

HP Latex suck... stick with solvent!

Leave it to us latex adopters to be stuck with these horrible machines, its ok we will manage to get by.

 

[nate]

HP Latex suck... stick with solvent!

Leave it to us latex adopters to be stuck with these horrible machines, its ok we will manage to get by.

Any reason? I've been with latex from the beginning and would not go back to solvent for anything. At one point we had 15 or so of the L25500 machines here.

I currently have a LX850, a Latex 3000, a Latex 360 and a L26500 in my shop among my other machines.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Any reason? I've been with latex from the beginning and would not go back to solvent for anything. At one point we had 15 or so of the L25500 machines here.

I currently have a LX850, a Latex 3000, a Latex 360 and a L26500 in my shop among my other machines.

I was being facetious, I'm a huge proponent of the HP Latex line... we have used them since the 25500 was released and will never go back to solvent.

 

[anthony smith]

just added hp 360

I have had my hp 360 about 3 weeks other than a pain in the *** to load
i love it, color is spot on , speed is great.
I have a jv 33 and have run a jv 3 for 9 years they are tough machines hands down
and easiest to run, but that banding just annoys me to no end
I have never had a customer even notice but drives me crazy so that being said
i print banners on the jv 33 and all else on the hp
I load up a new roll and print print print
love going straight to laminator
starting a 10 truck wrap job tomorrow with lots of gradients
the hp does a great job of that compared to my jv 33
i have printed over 900 feet of 54 inch vinyl and still got tons of ink
looks to be very good on ink comsumption
if i start a 8 foot print job at the same time the hp will beat the jv 33 and be will in to the next before
the jv 33 is finished
I think a lot is in the install have a common sense smart tech to set this thing up makes all the difference
good luck

 

[FrankW]

3 or 4 years ago a customer have got a demonstration of a Latex 280 (104") in our showroom. After that he told us that he had a Mimaki 104"-Demo too, will go back to his office, compare the prints and will give a feedback.

I was shure that we won't get the order because I thought that we can't compet with a Epson Printhead quality.

Next day the customer bought the Latex.

I was surprised about that and have contacted soneone who I thought he had both. He replied that they have used the Mimaki only for a short period and have replaced it wirh the latex, because of banding issues, vibrance of colours and scratch resistance. "Small dots are not everything" he explained.

Mimakis are really popular in switzerland, so I think the printers (perhaps except the wide ones) are really good. But the market leader is HP.

 

[BigfishDM]

Any reason? I've been with latex from the beginning and would not go back to solvent for anything. At one point we had 15 or so of the L25500 machines here.

I currently have a LX850, a Latex 3000, a Latex 360 and a L26500 in my shop among my other machines.

Lol he was just being sarcastic

 

[xxaxx]

Latex 100% ... We switched from eco-solvents a few years ago and wouldn't even think to go back. The HPs have worked perfectly, and we are in the process of updating to a couple new HPs now.

And for RJS to say the "only advantage is instant drying" in passing like that's a minor thing is crazy in my mind. That is a huge deal if you have deadlines of any type to consider. It removes a full day (or overnight) of drying from the production time, and you just get screwed if you need to reprint a panel for any reason, another day of drying added on.

Whether you choose Roland or HP or whatever, that's up to you and your specific needs, but if you are talking latex vs. solvent, its latex for sure no question.

 

[petesign]

Update: I have decided to go with solvent. I'm deciding between the Mimaki jv300-160 or the Mutoh 1638x. Both seem comparable, so it will likely come down to financing options. I am leaning toward the Mimaki since i am most comfortable in that ecosystem. I also get the idea that the Mutoh is an older printer and the Mimaki is a shiny new model. Anyone know if they both use the same print heads? Or have any experience with the two?

 

[rjssigns]

Since the debate rages on with latex vs. solvent I have some serious questions.

I've actually looked at the HP site and checked all the different latex printers.

I currently run a 4 color Roland. How can ink costs be cheaper with latex when there are three more carts to buy? Lc, Lm, and optimizer? Trying to figure that one out.

Also it seems from doing my research that the 110, 310 and 330 etc... have the same mechanical and print systems. You are only gaining width, different loading or things like touch screens and bulk inks. 110 and 310 are exact same square feet per hour is why I ask. Is my assumption correct?

What I'm getting at is the new Caddilac chassis also underpins the latest Camaro and one or two European models. I'm thinking HP does the same thing. Adds features to a generic platform to suit client needs/wants.

I'm intrigued by the 110 in the context of the questions I've asked.

Maybe BigFish and FrankW can chime in.

 

[Commando]

I have a JV33 and a HP latex 360. Latex is by far better.
Set up and everything is easier/quicker with the mimaki. Idk if that is just brand, or what..
Latex dries quick and will print on just about anything.
Solvent needs a long curing time and will only print on a limited amount of things. Also, there is basically no maintenance.
Hell man, you can print cool designs on window curtains with the latex..
Its 2016. Go Latex.

 

[FrankW]

I currently run a 4 color Roland. How can ink costs be cheaper with latex when there are three more carts to buy? Lc, Lm, and optimizer? Trying to figure that one out.

Light Inks do not add ink amount, they replace ink amount from the C and M-ink. It will not be 1:1 because light ink can print with more density on lighter tones, but the total ink usage will not be so much higher. And this more density on lighter tones will improve the quality.

HP says that Optimizer helps saving a little of the main ink channels, so the optimizer usage should help saving CMYK-Inks. I'm not shure about this .

Finally: in Europe, the costs of latex ink is cheaper per ml than the cost of genuine Mimaki-, Mutoh- or Roland inks.

Also it seems from doing my research that the 110, 310 and 330 etc... have the same mechanical and print systems. You are only gaining width, different loading or things like touch screens and bulk inks. 110 and 310 are exact same square feet per hour is why I ask. Is my assumption correct?

I can't say much about the 110, because this unit isn't sold in europe, but sometimes the differences of the models aren't technical, just marketing . The 110 is as far as I know a "mailorder"-version of the 310, for very small volumes.

The different width of the printers guide to that the 64"-machines needs 4 Curing units (the enhanced "hairdryers" who heats up the air and blows it on the media to cure) , the 54" only three. The 360 and 370, in opposite to the 310 and 330, have a higher carriage speed (60ips instead of 40ips) resulting in more printing speed, an internal spectrophotometer to build own icc-profiles, the possibility to replace the printer platen with the ink collector to print on porous media or borderless, a different spindle for loading more heavy roles, integrated OMAS-Sensor for feed adjustment and double-sided Printing and so on. The latex 310 and 110 do not even have a take-up (needs to be bought separately).

What I'm getting at is the new Caddilac chassis also underpins the latest Camaro and one or two European models. I'm thinking HP does the same thing. Adds features to a generic platform to suit client needs/wants.

Yes. The same with the new 500-Series (the same base). But on the same chassis you could get a sportscar (only suitable for two persons on longer trips) or a family saloon, or a van. You need to check your needs.

 

[FrankW]

I'm sorry about my english, its not my native tongue.