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Subscription Based Software

The Vector Doctor

Chief Bezier Manipulator
Since no one will go down this path I will. Someone give me a well thought out answer to what Adobe CC does for you that non-CC versions don't.

The dynamic corner rounding is by far worth $20 a month for me when using Illustrator. Yes just that function. It saves me many hours each month editing and tracing files. Also not having to ask a customer to save a file down so you can open it. That will become more of an issue as time goes on and companies go on board with Adobe CC
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
The dynamic corner rounding is by far worth $20 a month for me when using Illustrator. Yes just that function. It saves me many hours each month editing and tracing files. Also not having to ask a customer to save a file down so you can open it. That will become more of an issue as time goes on and companies go on board with Adobe CC

I must say, I use Astute Graphics Dynamic Corners plugin for that very reason. So I could say how that would be useful.
 

Fred Weiss

Merchant Member
I would submit that it isn't just about money collected ... it's also largely about control (especially piracy prevention), reducing costs (no CDs, books to print, shipping or distributor discounts). Subscriptions are just one aspect of the changes going on. Internet connections and verifications, even for lifetime licenses are becoming commonplace just to be able to use your software. For example, the Find My Font program many of us use is licensed for a one time fee but is tied into an online database that greatly enhances the product's usefulness. And Find My Font verifies that you are in their licensee database before you can gain access to it.

What is happening is a technology driven change of business models shifting from localized distributors and brick and mortar locations to direct sales or major marketplaces such as Amazon or eBay. Subscription based software is loaded with negatives that will eventually be overcome in most cases by competition offering more acceptable buying choices. But the tie in to internet connection to enable functionality will continue to grow because it is essential to the software publishers for control.
 
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Johnny Best

Active Member
I am a Mac person so I cannot use Corel. I wish they did make it for the mac but they don't. I have started using Affinity Designer and Photo. They do not cost much and they do have a learning curve which is not a bad thing. Also I do use open source software as OpenOffice. I feel that programs like from Affinity will take over the big boys just like I hope someone comes up with an OS that takes all programs the same.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
I am a Mac person so I cannot use Corel. I wish they did make it for the mac but they don't.

If I'm not mistaken Corel did make DRAW for mac back with version 9. Lackluster sales killed it.

In that way it was much like Corel Linux (yes Corel had it's own Linux distro). Bad thing is that they made their own Linux OS to far apart from other distros, so it lost a lot of interoperability. It morphed into Xandros and that has since been discontinued if I remember correctly.

The did make a version of Corel Draw that run on Linux, but it still used WINE, which back in those days wasn't as feature complete as it is now.

So DRAW did try to get into other markets, even Linux, I doubt that they will try again.

You can try to rig it in todays version of WINE (which is available for Mac as well) or you can run a VM. All my Windows instances are VMs running on Linux hosts. Given the right rig, no issues at all.
 

billsines

New Member
It just galls me that after using CC for long enough, I will be so much money in and once I stop with the subscription costs, it will go away. All that money in and I own nothing.

I only use what I believe to be is a small percentage if its functionality. For others, maybe you use all of AI or PS capability, and that's fine. But in my mind, why can't I just own it? In 5 or 10 years, when or if I ever need more functionality, at that time I have the option to upgrade.
 

billsines

New Member
So.... I guess you'll be getting Corel?

While I don't like the subscription model either.... the old way was costly and since they were always updating the software, it never went away either... I still have my Adobe, Corel, HotDoor, Flexi-Sign, AutoCad upgrade boxes since I started working on a computer, they represent way over 10g's in cost, none of them will work on my latest OS, let alone the lack of floppy disc to install some of them, so I would still be upgrading.
I have to work 35 minutes a month to pay for my Adobe, 5 hours a month to pay for all my software... I waste more money on the internet, the toilet or drinking coffee than that 5 hours of work - I make money being efficient and charging enough knowing I have a set cost to stay in business. If you have an issue with 50 bucks a month... you might have bigger problems... I pay 10 times that in software a month and believe they keep me in business. But yeah, I miss the upgrade boxes, I like to have a physical representation of my expenditure...

By the way, I don't like paying my website bill, my cloud cost, my off-site file saving, my inevitable computer upgrades that come every few years, but I charge enough for that too.

I never had issues with signing out overnight, I mostly rely on my physical fonts...


I already have Corel, mostly use Draw, that is coming from our foray into the world of laser. It came with our Epilog. I use it pretty much every day. I've had it for about 7 years, only upgraded once. We're mostly CNC so laying up in black and white is sufficient, then export the vectors to Vectric VCarve. Updates are never more than a couple hundred bucks. Then I own that version forever without Corel hands or Vectric hands in my pockets every single month.

I can afford $50 a month, but i'd rather pay that to myself.

Leasing isn't a bad thing, I think it just all depends on your business and business philosophies. I know an excavator that doesn't own much equipment at all. For each job they just build the lease cost of the equipment into the quote, rent the equipment for the job, get it done, and turn it back in. That takes your equipment maintenance to basically zero. You're always getting virtually new equipment to use. I think that's a great model. BUT, if something freakish happens and you don't have work for awhile, the equipment is sitting on someone else's lot and you're not paying for it again until the next job.
 

Johnny Best

Active Member
Adobe stock has been really good ($156.80), so their business model with CC seems to have worked. I feel like others about paying the "rent" to use it is wasting money. Like a share cropper working for the large land owner. You are never going to get out of it. "You owe your soul to the company store". I like to own something, not be a renter where the landlord controls your life.
Some people may call me cheap, but I will save that money and put it in my pocket so it is mine and not theirs. I refuse to live in HUD housing.
Just a matter of time till Corel moves to the CC model.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
It just galls me that after using CC for long enough, I will be so much money in and once I stop with the subscription costs, it will go away. All that money in and I own nothing.

The longer you use a perpetual license, the cost of that license actually goes down. With subscription, you always have the same cost going out every month, so over time, it actually doesn't go down.

I only use what I believe to be is a small percentage if its functionality. For others, maybe you use all of AI or PS capability, and that's fine. But in my mind, why can't I just own it? In 5 or 10 years, when or if I ever need more functionality, at that time I have the option to upgrade.

To me, it's not so much the functionality of an individual software within the suite, but how much of the entire suite you use. I only needed Design Premium (which I would imagine most people on here is all that they ever needed, maybe even Design Standard they could eeck by with).

Adobe stock has been really good ($156.80), so their business model with CC seems to have worked.

Most people live in the now and that's what they are focused on. Not in say 5, 10 yrs from now. They focus on what they have to pay now, to what the total cost is down the road.

Shoot, when Adobe was "comparing" the cost of the 2 when they starting to the new subscription only model, they stopped at 3 yrs out. Which for me on leasing, would be about right. 2 to 3 yrs and that's when leasing starts to really add up.

Now if you needed all the programs, it would have taken 20 yrs before perpetual cost less (which is negligible in my mind between the 2 license costs), but if you just needed more then one, but less then all, that's when there was a problem and that's what I would imagine most on here being. Needing more then 1 or 2, but not quite needing all of them.

I feel like others about paying the "rent" to use it is wasting money.

It is, if you are paying more money in the long run for something that would have been more economical and more profitable by using the other method and you would have more control over.

Some people may call me cheap, but I will save that money and put it in my pocket so it is mine and not theirs.

Getting a good deal or getting the same thing for a lesser amount over the long term isn't being cheap. Buying an inferior good, because it's cheap is being cheap. At least to me.

Just a matter of time till Corel moves to the CC model.

Which is ironic considering Corel used the perpetual license model to get a lot of converts. However, I would say that a lot of software (particularly closed source) will be going that way. Especially when you start to consider that Corel is trying to get on a yearly release cycle with DRAW.

I don't use Corel, even though it comes with my digitizing software, but as long as they offer both, I would be happy. Remove an option, that's where things get less happy for me.

Bare in mind too, at least with Ai and DRAW, we are looking at programs that are 28-30 yrs old. I would say that at this time, especially for commercial products, they are fully mature. Sure there may be a few things every couple of years to keep them relevant with current standards, but pretty much as far as tool sets go, they are pretty mature.

Have to find some way to stabilize the "upgrades" to continue to get that revenue in and I can understand that. Just how they sell that reasoning is not kosher in my mind.
 

billsines

New Member
Adobe stock has been really good ($156.80), so their business model with CC seems to have worked. I feel like others about paying the "rent" to use it is wasting money. Like a share cropper working for the large land owner. You are never going to get out of it. "You owe your soul to the company store". I like to own something, not be a renter where the landlord controls your life.
Some people may call me cheap, but I will save that money and put it in my pocket so it is mine and not theirs. I refuse to live in HUD housing.
Just a matter of time till Corel moves to the CC model.


I agree with pretty much everything you're saying. It kind of reminds me of buying a new car. They say, "what do you want your payments to be?" I just really hate the prospect of always owing something to someone. Now it is true that that payment includes interest, which in my mind makes those kinds of payments more heinous. Now I know not everyone can pay cash for a car, especially when they are young, but it should be something worth shooting for: not owing someone something your whole life. Get your cars paid off, your house, all your business equipment. Then keep your money for yourself.

I guess what it all boils down to is a business/life philosophy about debt/payments, etc. I know a lease isn't really a "debt" per se, but yeah, you have the aggravation of ongoing payments.

Just my $.02 and it has been great hearing all of your thoughts on this kind of thing.
 

shoresigns

New Member
1. If clients give you files and you print/fabricate them, you need to have the latest software for file compatibility. Buying the software once and using it for a "lifetime" is not practical at all. It will cause endless headaches—speaking from experience of our shop waiting too long to upgrade from CS6 to CC.

2. If you design for clients and you print/fabricate your designs for them, you need the latest software if only for the new time-saving features that get added at a fairly rapid pace these days. Buying the software once and using it for a "lifetime" is not practical if you want to take advantage of the latest technology to save time and improve your workflow. Again, speaking from experience as the shop designer.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
1. If clients give you files and you print/fabricate them, you need to have the latest software for file compatibility. Buying the software once and using it for a "lifetime" is not practical at all. It will cause endless headaches—speaking from experience of our shop waiting too long to upgrade from CS6 to CC.

Depends on the situation. 98% of the files that I get are in formats like jpg, pdf etc. I rarely get source proprietary formats. When I do, a lot of the more current open source document readers that are natively wrapped in my GNU/Linux distro can handle them (yes that does include Ai and CDR formats).

From there, I save in a legacy format and pop in my VM and get it done.

2. If you design for clients and you print/fabricate your designs for them, you need the latest software if only for the new time-saving features that get added at a fairly rapid pace these days. Buying the software once and using it for a "lifetime" is not practical if you want to take advantage of the latest technology to save time and improve your workflow. Again, speaking from experience as the shop designer.

Not exactly true. I still use tools that have been around since the early aughts (if not earlier) and I rarely use the latest "time saving" benefits, because there are some cons that go with them. In fact, some of those very "time saving" techniques can do more harm then good.

It does depend on the situation though.

This isn't for everyone and not everyone can get away from it, but the converse is true as well. Not all are totally hooked and can only handle if they are truly up to date.

Hardware is not as easy to get away with not being current then software. I run all my legacy software on current hardware (the joys of VMs) and it just plain works. It's not for everyone, but it can work and work very easily. The oldest software that I've got is from 1986 and it's only DOS CLI and it still works on a 2 yr old Lenovo Thinkstation. It does exactly what I need it to do and it still competes with the latest big boys. Just requires more knowledge is all, but quality output is still the same.
 

SightLine

║▌║█║▌│║▌║▌█
We are still hanging on by our fingernails to CS6. On the files that come in that CS6 simply cannot open we just first open them with Flexi and then export them back out as an ai file if we need to get the file into Illustrator for some reason. I've resisted the cloud so far here. Not one single rent forever application in use. Our 3 Flexi licenses are all perpetual too....
 

Johnny Best

Active Member
We are still hanging on by our fingernails to CS6. On the files that come in that CS6 simply cannot open we just first open them with Flexi and then export them back out as an ai file if we need to get the file into Illustrator for some reason. I've resisted the cloud so far here. Not one single rent forever application in use. Our 3 Flexi licenses are all perpetual too....
If you know the person who sent you the CC file, tell them to save as an .Ai file and when second box (Illustrator Options) pops up have them save it as a CS6 version
 

rjssigns

Active Member
I'd like to address Fred's comment about piracy and the control Adobe now thinks they have. It's amusing that big corporations think they have the best and brightest.
Within one week of Adobe launching CC the "crack" was already finished and being distributed.
This information came from a good friend that attends "conferences".
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
I'd like to address Fred's comment about piracy and the control Adobe now thinks they have. It's amusing that big corporations think they have the best and brightest.
Within one week of Adobe launching CC the "crack" was already finished and being distributed.
This information came from a good friend that attends "conferences".

Didn't they actually have the source code leaked as well?

No matter how smart you are, there is always someone smarter.

One of the dangers of proprietary code that others can't look at and vet it. So that keeps "fresh eyes" from finding holes that might otherwise be caught.

Given what companies in the news have been doing with regard to "plugging up" holes, it seems like they are really not any smarter then the average joe at times.
 

shoresigns

New Member
I really don't get the comments about wanting to "own" the software. What's the point? I used to own CD's, hard drives, software, etc. but I love that everything is shifting to a subscription model. All those things just took up space in my house, and now they live in the cloud.

I get all the music I want for $10 a month, and I used to spend way more on CD's. I pay <$5 a month for online storage that backs up everything on my computer. $50 a month gets me all the latest Adobe software that I use every day, and access to all the other Adobe apps in their growing library. It's all reasonably priced and it's not that hard to think of it as a service rather than a physical good, when I can't imagine why I would want the physical goods anyway.

I just don't get why you would be upset about paying $50 a month and then having nothing to show for it when you cancel your subscription. When you cancel your electric bill, what do you have to show for it? You got to use power for all that time you were paying for it, that's what you have. Subscription software is just a service.
 

shoresigns

New Member
Well someone drank the Cloud Koolaid.
Yep. Also worth mentioning that $10 a month gets us pretty much all the fonts we could ever need, including matching most fonts that clients want us to use for their brand. That's the one subscription (Monotype Library) that actually saves us a ton of $$$.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
While I can't speak for everyone, this is just my take on it.

I really don't get the comments about wanting to "own" the software. What's the point? I used to own CD's, hard drives, software, etc. but I love that everything is shifting to a subscription model. All those things just took up space in my house, and now they live in the cloud.

A lot of people say "own", but unless one legally has the source code of software in question, they don't truly own it (I know you put it in quotes, so I'm not saying you specifically). The only reason that having the source code would be meaningful to me, since I'm not a coder, is to compile it on the latest version of the OS to hopefully increase my odds of getting it to work (unless we are talking about major arch changes between when the software was originally written to today).

Control over the software would be the biggest reason why I like perpetual.

I firmly believe that production computers should not be attached to an outside network (which is what you need for subscription and/or cloud based applications). If there is one vector for instability in a production environment, it's due to an outside network connection.

With the way that Win 10 is going, instability is going to increase as well.

I don't think it's necessarily the physical good itself. I make backups of my programs and OSs as ISOs. Especially considering it's going to be harder and harder to get computers with optical drives in them. That also eliminates the concern of space needed to store those discs as well.

I get all the music I want for $10 a month, and I used to spend way more on CD's. I pay <$5 a month for online storage that backs up everything on my computer. $50 a month gets me all the latest Adobe software that I use every day, and access to all the other Adobe apps in their growing library. It's all reasonably priced and it's not that hard to think of it as a service rather than a physical good, when I can't imagine why I would want the physical goods anyway.

Are you adding up all those monthly payments to include over the entire "lifespan" of your use or are you just thinking of it as a month by monthly only, with no "memory" of the previous month paid?

It may be that "reasonable price" actually costs you more in the long run and you have less control over what you can do with what you get.

Again, in a production environment, having the latest and greatest isn't always the best for stability, especially if one is "upgrading" as soon as the latest comes out.

I'm not saying that it isn't a good thing to update and be current (it is), but how one deploys that latest and greatest can drastically affect stability. And in a production environment, you want stability.

I just don't get why you would be upset about paying $50 a month and then having nothing to show for it when you cancel your subscription. When you cancel your electric bill, what do you have to show for it? You got to use power for all that time you were paying for it, that's what you have. Subscription software is just a service.

Not exactly the same thing.
 
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