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Too many sign shops!!
- Thread starter Creative_Lance
- Start date
Westcoast Sign Guy
New Member
I kid you not, in a 5 mile radius from where I am I can count 75 vinyl/banner/wrap type shops. I'm glad I don't compete in this market, for every single shop that goes out of business about 1.75 shops takes it's place.
P
ProWraps™
Guest
and they have 2.2 kids.
onesource
New Member
About the same here! I love the more technical end.
I think Jiarby had some great incite into this. Instead of focusing on "what are they after", focus on what is the opportunity in this for me. What is the big deal if they pick-up some pointers from you? If you are confident in your abilities and strive to be the best, no matter what, you will always come out head and shoulders above all the rest. A few pointers is not going launch a new sign shop to the forefront. Knowledge is one thing, application is entirely another. I'm not saying you share all of your trade secrets, however I am sure you have acquired some sales skills along the way that allow you to read people. If so, you should be able to separate the "dirt bags" from the good folks. Take some time to develope a symbiotic relationship. For example, they may want to focus solely on banners and simple projects, while your specialty may be permanent signage. You may have an uncommissioned sales person standing directly infront of you. So what if you don't take all of the credit, you just made some money making a sign for one of their customers. Besides, if they are a hack, they will be out of business in no time. Food for thought. Just another way to look at things. Make a great day for yourself.
OldPaint
New Member
WHAT YOU NEED TO OPEN A SIGN SHOP TODAY:
1. a computer
2. a plotter
3. or a printer & some company that leases their equipment to ANYONE
4. some ability to operate computer & some sorta CAD PROGRAM.
5. zero talent
6. THE LURE OF FAST EASY MONEY
7. NO TALENT
8. NO DESIGN OR ART SCHOOLING
9. NO PREVIOUS KNOWLEDGE OF HOW SIGNS ARE MADE
10.JUST LOWBALL EVERYBODY ELSE AND YOU'LL MAKE A MILLION)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
i hate to repeat what ive said many times
and ive seen this gettin worse all the time. IT AINT THE FACT that these people get into this business,
AND FAIL.......
its the fact that THEIR LOWBALLING.........creates a memory in the public, THAT WE WILL UNDERCUT ANYONE ELSE PRICE FOR PRODUCTS.....
this is what is hard to change.
1. a computer
2. a plotter
3. or a printer & some company that leases their equipment to ANYONE
4. some ability to operate computer & some sorta CAD PROGRAM.
5. zero talent
6. THE LURE OF FAST EASY MONEY
7. NO TALENT
8. NO DESIGN OR ART SCHOOLING
9. NO PREVIOUS KNOWLEDGE OF HOW SIGNS ARE MADE
10.JUST LOWBALL EVERYBODY ELSE AND YOU'LL MAKE A MILLION)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
i hate to repeat what ive said many times
and ive seen this gettin worse all the time. IT AINT THE FACT that these people get into this business,
AND FAIL.......
its the fact that THEIR LOWBALLING.........creates a memory in the public, THAT WE WILL UNDERCUT ANYONE ELSE PRICE FOR PRODUCTS.....
this is what is hard to change.
Jillbeans
New Member
Excellent point, OP, although I had to edit it into something easily read. It's not so much the new shops, but their misunderstanding of how to price (and usually how to fabricate/design/install) which hurts established shops. Sign shops come and go, and the damage that new ones who lowball themselves out of business remains. Like the stench from a hard-boiled-egg fart which nobody will own up to. The public then sees the established shops as price gougers, because those shops charge what they actually should be charging. The public sees the cheap-ass shoddily made/installed signs and lettering and thinks we all do that. The public thinks we charge a premium for said bad signs.
I see new ones come and go every year. I try to just keep on keeping on, and not to fret. Because they do blow out about as frequently as they blew in. I have 5 within two miles of me. Four of them are specialized (monument, carved, sandblasted, printing) one is a total hack. Luckily I am also specialized so there is room for all of us. I can't find the hack's (comically bad) website any longer, so maybe they are gone with the wind.
Love....Jill
PS
Pat you live in a crater? A crater with a casino? Damn!
Pat Whatley
New Member
Kind of,,,it's a big "tent" looking thing right now. They're so confident they're getting gambling legalized, though, that they're beginning construcion on the monster sized gaming complex,
T
Twowrist
Guest
I read a comment by one of the VP's at HP who said "we hope to do to the sign business what Apple has done for the music industry." I immediately fired a letter to Ken Mergentine, the editor of the magazine it was in and asked him just what has Apple done for music? Besides promoting theft and piracy, facilitating bootleg production, cheapening the sound with lousy sample rates, and making sure that any brain dead mo-mo could produce their own media.
In the sign biz , just like in music, it ends up being the artists driving the industry that get screwed. The pikers and posers come along with no fresh ideas of their own and literally make a "fax" (a copy of lesser quality) of someone else's concepts and construction.
The good news is this; the signage that can't be easily reproduced by some automated cookie cutter will always be in demand, and of a quality that a buyer will appreciate. Let the cut and paste shops eat each other alive, and do what you do best...provide top quality signage and service they just can't compare to. Your reputations and wallets should remain somewhat intact.
In the sign biz , just like in music, it ends up being the artists driving the industry that get screwed. The pikers and posers come along with no fresh ideas of their own and literally make a "fax" (a copy of lesser quality) of someone else's concepts and construction.
The good news is this; the signage that can't be easily reproduced by some automated cookie cutter will always be in demand, and of a quality that a buyer will appreciate. Let the cut and paste shops eat each other alive, and do what you do best...provide top quality signage and service they just can't compare to. Your reputations and wallets should remain somewhat intact.
skyhigh
New Member
good post OP.
Maybe some of these lowballing, zero talent scumbags should consider an easier profession?
WHAT YOU NEED TO OPEN A PIZZA SHOP TODAY...
1. an oven
2. pizza dough
3. sauce
4. toppings
Just some "food for thought" (no pun intended).
OP, a pisan like you, should make a pretty good pie.
Poconopete
New Member
good post OP.
Maybe some of these lowballing, zero talent scumbags should consider an easier profession?
WHAT YOU NEED TO OPEN A PIZZA SHOP TODAY...
1. an oven
2. pizza dough
3. sauce
4. toppings
Just some "food for thought" (no pun intended).
OP, a pisan like you, should make a pretty good pie.
And you can get a desk top pizza oven for less then $90!
Does sauce come in different colors?
Gino
Premium Subscriber
When I started, there were about eight shops in the whole county. As of 15 years ago, there are 65 shops in my town alone, not counting the Spanish shops and other non-legit shops.
Back in the mid 80’s many of these fast sign shop franchises started up, but their knowledge of the industry was horrendous. This one guy actually would print a sign on paper, wrap it in saran wrap and glue it fast to a piece of treated lumber and consider that outdoor durable. He stayed in business for a few years, sold it to another dim-wit who eventually went under. That seemed to be the trend back then….. they’d open a franchise here or there and go out within two or three years. Problem is… they had no clue how to produce or price things. That was the real start of lowballing. Although they had a business plan or guide to follow… based on the franchise rules…. their standards were V E R Y low. It started a downward spin on small legit shops. Everyone started to compete with low prices to keep work coming in rather than sell service and quality. In my opinion, all of the franchises set the pace for cheapening the industry. It’s a level of doing business that still exists today.
Got to the point as more and more of these types kept opening there was more and more cheap competition, but when a customer goes to a sign shop that professes to be reputable…. they believe it. Why not ?? As customer after customer gets stung and their signs don’t last or friends make fun of their designs…. the burnt customer then goes out in search of another sign shop, but doesn’t have the trust any longer in the service and shops for price alone. Again, ‘built in’ disaster.
Anyway, this practice has been going on for a long time and now many of the new hacks, newbies and backyard mechanics are adopting the same business plan and mentality for making signs. Down, quick and dirty. Sure, you want to make a sign and get as much out of it as you can, but not at another persons’ expense.
Setting up a shop, having a website and getting key phrases to appear professional is a very deceiving manner in which any business could/would operate.
If any of you are ‘Quick Sign Shops’ and I’ve misrepresented you…. well sorry, but the low standards sprouted from your kind. I had a guy working for us years ago, that actually turned a failing franchise around with what he added to that shop. He moved away and we still stay in contact. He asks me questions and for advice sometimes, but for the most part, we’re just good friends helping each other.
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Back in the mid 80’s many of these fast sign shop franchises started up, but their knowledge of the industry was horrendous. This one guy actually would print a sign on paper, wrap it in saran wrap and glue it fast to a piece of treated lumber and consider that outdoor durable. He stayed in business for a few years, sold it to another dim-wit who eventually went under. That seemed to be the trend back then….. they’d open a franchise here or there and go out within two or three years. Problem is… they had no clue how to produce or price things. That was the real start of lowballing. Although they had a business plan or guide to follow… based on the franchise rules…. their standards were V E R Y low. It started a downward spin on small legit shops. Everyone started to compete with low prices to keep work coming in rather than sell service and quality. In my opinion, all of the franchises set the pace for cheapening the industry. It’s a level of doing business that still exists today.
Got to the point as more and more of these types kept opening there was more and more cheap competition, but when a customer goes to a sign shop that professes to be reputable…. they believe it. Why not ?? As customer after customer gets stung and their signs don’t last or friends make fun of their designs…. the burnt customer then goes out in search of another sign shop, but doesn’t have the trust any longer in the service and shops for price alone. Again, ‘built in’ disaster.
Anyway, this practice has been going on for a long time and now many of the new hacks, newbies and backyard mechanics are adopting the same business plan and mentality for making signs. Down, quick and dirty. Sure, you want to make a sign and get as much out of it as you can, but not at another persons’ expense.
What’s wrong with knowing what you’re doing before you prance around pretending you know what you’re doing ?? 
Setting up a shop, having a website and getting key phrases to appear professional is a very deceiving manner in which any business could/would operate.
If any of you are ‘Quick Sign Shops’ and I’ve misrepresented you…. well sorry, but the low standards sprouted from your kind. I had a guy working for us years ago, that actually turned a failing franchise around with what he added to that shop. He moved away and we still stay in contact. He asks me questions and for advice sometimes, but for the most part, we’re just good friends helping each other.
Yep, way too many shops around today….. and the part about it being healthy for competition……. well, it’s only good for competition if you are the same kinda shop. Otherwise, we don’t consider them competition but a nuisance.
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Pat Whatley
New Member
Don't forget OP that years ago all it took to be a sign painter was a can of cheap paint and a brush. I heard this same line of crap about new sign shops back when people were talking about how bad a lot of them hand lettered. There were just as many bad snappers as bad sticky vinyl people.
OldPaint
New Member
but pat, even the BAD SNAPPERS........had some level of ABILITY and UNDERSTANDING OF THE MARKET....
today, most who jump into this, DONT EVEN HAVE THAT. i see the crap some of these people do.......and most have somebody with money.........TO SET THEIR SORRY ARSES UP......in a business they know nothing about.....
today, most who jump into this, DONT EVEN HAVE THAT. i see the crap some of these people do.......and most have somebody with money.........TO SET THEIR SORRY ARSES UP......in a business they know nothing about.....
Billct2
Active Member
When I started lettering in the 70s (after a year of study at Butera Sign School and working part time before that for the local sign guy) there were several lousy sign painters that had no talent, two or three letter syles they could manage to get out, no sense of design, no overhead because they worked out of their car and charged half or less what others did.
There was one guy who was king of trucks, everyone thought he was great, I still hear people talk about how he didn't need to use a pattern or anything, just start bashing the door with his brush...well I knew every truck he did, because they were all the same damn design and color pallette.
The difference now is hacks can produce "computer perfect" letters and graphics, and there's a lot more of them.
There was one guy who was king of trucks, everyone thought he was great, I still hear people talk about how he didn't need to use a pattern or anything, just start bashing the door with his brush...well I knew every truck he did, because they were all the same damn design and color pallette.
The difference now is hacks can produce "computer perfect" letters and graphics, and there's a lot more of them.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Gotta keep things fair and in perspective.
I prided myself as being an accomplished [and fast] brush artist for pictorials, shocard and oil commercial signs and trucks, but I was far from the best. However, I saw some really bad looking signs produced by really bad sign painters over the years. It's just they weren't in any league of any sort. They didn't have computers to save their butts and they generally never grew bigger than a garage in some back alley. They basically were just off the brush hacks and were above using a mahl stick and talking 'shop' with others.
One of the guys locally here was a very small guy... almost a dwarf or midget..... or whatever the PC thing is to call him these days, but back then we all called him the little guy with a big head. Anyway, he needed to stand on a step to paint big banners and paper posters. His ability was just above 'Piss' in the 'Poor' category. You could always tell someone's work by the layouts, color schemes and type faces being used. His was always a 'thick-thin' slash lettering. I don't think I ever saw a good sign by him.
Anyway, there were a few hacks back then without talent for lettering. They could probably draw a dog's head by tracing their thumb and thought they were artistic, but it took more than that to stay ahead of the pack.
Today, some of the computer people have hand drawing capabilities, but again, the proportionate numbers of sign painters back then compared to the so-called sign shops of today was far less. I would venture to say 9 out of 10 guys were really good at their trade. Today its more like about 2 or 3 out of 40 are good at their job.
Is there anything as good today as it was when any one of us were young[er] ?? Why does every generation always say.... in my day we had................ and it only cost............ ?? We had snow all winter long and today we only have snow showers. We always remember a few of the outstanding things of our lives and all of these new upcoming sign hacks will have similar stories and will exaggerate the same way.... the lies will get bigger and the ease of doing something will be lost in time.
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I think that we will be seeing a lot more offset printing companies getting into signs. Offset printing is a shrinking industry (probably why your neighbor closed shop), and those printers who are able to survive will be forced to expand their product line.
From the standpoint of an offset printer (which we have done for 20 years), sign equipment AND screen printing is dirt cheap and so many of the offset skills carry over to signage and/or screen printing that signs/screen printing makes for a realitively easy sideline.
We now have a sign department (digital printed and cut vinyl and screen printed), a textile screen printing department, an offset department, and an advertising specialties dept.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Gino! It's pretty interesting to hear about all these things.
Have you ever considered being a writer?? Not trying to be a smart a**, but your posts are always pretty elaborate and well thought out...
Nope.
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