-
I want to thank all the members that have upgraded your accounts. I truly appreciate your support of the site monetarily. Supporting the site keeps this site up and running as a lot of work daily goes on behind the scenes. Click to Support Signs101 ...
Vinyl Lettering Coming Off
- Thread starter Newmansign
- Start date
njsigns
New Member
I had an experience once with adhesion issues - I ran out of cheap paper towels on the job site and the client gave me some of those blue shop towels to finish my prep - I never would have thought they could have caused such an issue... but they did, it was the only variable that changed during the course of the job and they only area to fail. I went back the next day with the same cheap paper towels I always use, re-prepped the area as normal - no issues...
Gene
blue shop towels
Gene
blue shop towels
OldPaint
New Member
i use it when the job is what is needed!!!!
i do a whole fleet of tree service vehicles.........ALL CALENDARED!!! ZERO PROBLEMS, and they get more abuse then most any other truck i do. intermediate holds up better then HIGH PERFORMANCE in these conditions. i got trucks i have done..........for him 5-8 years ago!!! truck get wore out before the vinyl does.
i also have done a lot of roofer trucks. same thing. intermediate holds up better.
lexsigns
New Member
TammieH
New Member
Just curious, you might try and do a paint test to see if there is any sort of residue.
If you brush on an oil based 1 shot or similar to see if the paint fish eyes. You said the two trailers were parked, were they parked so that the two failing sides were facing the same direction? Maybe something from trees or a neighbor contaminated them?
Try using Naptha?
If you brush on an oil based 1 shot or similar to see if the paint fish eyes. You said the two trailers were parked, were they parked so that the two failing sides were facing the same direction? Maybe something from trees or a neighbor contaminated them?
Try using Naptha?
petepaz
New Member
i had this happen on a similar type of truck and it turned out it was the paint and they ended up re-painting it. only difference was it was both sides. not sure if it was the wrong paint exactly or if it was not mixed correctly with the hardener. maybe in your case it could be something as simple as they didn't clean the tank good enough before re-painting and you are getting some sort of chemical reaction in the paint that won't allow the vinyl to stick. good luck
BobM
New Member
My best guess is that the tanker was not cleaned properly. I seen installers try to wash to large an area with to few wipers. I always clean a small area, 3 or 4 square feet, with Rapid Prep changing the paper towels frequently. After cleaning the entire tanker you should clean it again with Rapid Prep, doing small sections at a time and changing the paper towels frequently. I would then apply the vinyl wet with Rapid Tac II.
The cheapest paper towels without printing or perfumes are the best to use.
I would never use calandered vinyl on a comercial vehicle. Just not worth the few dollars you might save.
The cheapest paper towels without printing or perfumes are the best to use.
I would never use calandered vinyl on a comercial vehicle. Just not worth the few dollars you might save.
ddubia
New Member
There could be something to this. When I was hand lettering back in the day I would occasionally run into a truck paint job in which the painter was apparently getting fish eyes. Instead of properly cleaning the surface they used an old painting trick of adding some liquid silicone (Smoothie: fish eye eliminator) in the paint.
My One-Shot would fish eye like crazy on this painted surface. The only answer I had for it was to add some Smoothie to my paint. That would take care of the fish eye problem but I waited to see if there would be durability problems. It never came up.
But once I ran into a job that had so much Smoothie in it that I couldn't defeat the fish eyes regardless what I did. My lettering failed within a year of my painting it. I tried to patch it but with the silicone I used the first time I couldn't get the next coat to adhere worth a crap without a ton of fish eyes. Luckily I was good friends with the truck owner and he admitted the original paint job on the truck was done very cheaply. He accepted my explanation since I'd lettered several of his trucks through the years and they were all holding up very well.
I don't know if a highly "siliconized" paint film would cause adhesion problems with vinyl but I don't doubt that it would. It makes for a very slippery surface.
Probably not your issue but it's the first thing I thought of when I read the problem. Of course, if the painter did in fact use a lot of silicone in his paint he's not about to admit it. Odd that it happened on only one side of each unit. Perhaps the trailers were parked facing opposite directions and the surfaces facing one direction got contaminated making the use of Smoothie necessary.
It's highly unlikely that this is the issue but it sounds plausible to me.
OldPaint
New Member
AVERY......had their problem wit their HP VINYL!!! i know, and have never bought a roll since. i did a $400 job, it srank badly in the 1st year....DENVER SIGN SUPPLY is who i bough tthe vinyl from they issued me a $45 STORE CREDIT, for the AVERY SCREW UP.........never bought from either since.ni kidding? what brand?
I was an Avery victim - not all cast is good !
as for intermediate vinyl, i use SHINE RITE(fellers). this is also the same vinyl as BRITE LINE(grimco) or GMI INTERMEDIATE. i do some stuff with oracal 651. i also do new logos for big diesel air compressors like SULAIR, INGERSOL RAND. Iam talking 140 to 200 cfm for jackhammers and hugh sandblasters.
these machines get all kinda heavy abuse. HP VINLY on these wouldnt last 2 years. the intermediate is more durable because of its a little heavier, and the adhesive is very aggressive.
so you need understand the products you use, what applications work better for each. you want pretty and longevity, as long as its not on an abusived piece of equipment.......HP does the job. high impact, dirty abrasive job sites...INTERMEDIATE.........
GoodPeopleFlags
New Member
We use 651 and 651RA on everything, too. Cast last about 7 years, right? What vehicle needs the same lettering for 7 years? Most of the time, the vehicle gets sold or the lettering will need changing or be removed completely well before 7 years... usually after just a a few years.
OldPaint
New Member
i have a client, bought 2 new ford vans in 2000. i lettered them with AVERY HP SPECTRA(900-460) RED, that looking at the backside of the vinyl it is silver. 3 YEARS AGO, he bought a box truck, wanted it lettered the same as his vans. now this is amazing. i got the box van finished, he drove one of the 2000 ford vans up next to............THERE WAS NO VARIATION IN THE SHADE/COLOR of the vinyl on either vehicle!!!!! and this is in FLORIDA.
now that is fantastic. putting HP on a vehicle that they will keep many years....is great BUT THEY PAY FOR IT.....i let them know this aint gona go away in 5-7 years)))
now that is fantastic. putting HP on a vehicle that they will keep many years....is great BUT THEY PAY FOR IT.....i let them know this aint gona go away in 5-7 years)))
rjssigns
Active Member
They may have had an "issue" with that side of the tank necessitating a spot repair. Probably wet sanded then buffed the area to match. After which they may have used a "glaze" that was full of silicone to even out the buffed non-buffed areas. Using a siliconized glaze may have been an honest mistake on their part. New guy, wants to impress the boss yada, yada, yada.
Could be an airborne contaminant also. I have seen it where the shop is in an industrial area. Another shop across the street or even down the block is working on a product and exhausting the fumes, the wind is the right direction etc...
Could be an airborne contaminant also. I have seen it where the shop is in an industrial area. Another shop across the street or even down the block is working on a product and exhausting the fumes, the wind is the right direction etc...
Gino
Premium Subscriber
That might be true, to an extent, but not as a rule.
Most of the construction and equipment work we do, the companies buy their stuff brand new and run it into the ground before selling it for nothing to an auction house. Some of the small guys getting into home remodeling or last minute brainstorm businesses, might only use it a year or two [then go out of business], but most people will either keep thier vehicles 4 to 5 years if leasing before trading up... or just keep it forever, thus wanting the lettering job to last for a good 7 to 10 years. That's the one major factor when disclosing how long a wrap will really last. If being honest with a customer, once they know a wrap won't go much beyond 5 years.... they tend to amortize the cost of it and go more towards partials or straight die-cut. Then you're back at cast vs. calendared.
Last question.... if a roll of H/P is around $60, while a intermediate is around $30 a roll.... how can $30 difference make or break a deal ?? That's absurd. Regardless of what you're lettering a tanker or a van..... the difference is pennies compared to what the customer pays. That's the statistic I could never really understand when someone says how much more the cs is. The same mindset goes when people are buying inks and want to save $50 a liter, when a liter will yield literally $1,000's of dollars of work. That savings is negligent.
Paint Job
I am going to guess it was the paint job or something in the paint. I did a job about 5 years ago that just had a paint job. I only waited 5 days for paint to cure, lettered it, and 2 weeks later, all of the letters started turning. They looked wavy. I learned from that to never apply lettering right away!
I am going to guess it was the paint job or something in the paint. I did a job about 5 years ago that just had a paint job. I only waited 5 days for paint to cure, lettered it, and 2 weeks later, all of the letters started turning. They looked wavy. I learned from that to never apply lettering right away!
petepaz
New Member
maybe we have to start a new thread to argue about cast vs calendered.
we use the 651 for a lot of lettering jobs. most of the guys we letter don't have the trucks more than 3-4 years. if it is something that needs to be cast we use it but i wouldn't say you always have to use cast nor should you be ashamed to say you don't. every job is different. if the customer leases a truck or van for 2-3 years why not give him a better price using calendered vinyl (give the customer a little better price and at the same time keep a little more profit for your self) the only time i have seen a problem is using calendered on the hood of the truck, between the constant sun and heat from the engine it doesn't last as long as it does on the sides (shrinks and cracks)
we use the 651 for a lot of lettering jobs. most of the guys we letter don't have the trucks more than 3-4 years. if it is something that needs to be cast we use it but i wouldn't say you always have to use cast nor should you be ashamed to say you don't. every job is different. if the customer leases a truck or van for 2-3 years why not give him a better price using calendered vinyl (give the customer a little better price and at the same time keep a little more profit for your self) the only time i have seen a problem is using calendered on the hood of the truck, between the constant sun and heat from the engine it doesn't last as long as it does on the sides (shrinks and cracks)
Gino
Premium Subscriber
I hear ya. 
Guess I'm coming from a different point of view.
Guess I'm coming from a different point of view.
When we screen printed heavily back in the day... I was always disgusted of how many blacks we had to stock in order to print to plastics, Cor-X, paper products, enamel and multi- this and that colors.
I'd have 5 or 6 blacks on the shelf at any given time and had to have it according to what job came down the pike..... and it spilled into the whites, yellows, greens and so many other basic colors. We could mix our own custom colors, but then we exhausted that particular type and had to replace a basic color again.
Now, why should I stock 3 or 4 levels of black, red, green, blue or any other colors and have money sitting on the shelves and not in my pocket ??
If you were a high-volume shop, perhaps you'd go through it all fast enough it didn't matter, but even so, if you stock a low grade vinyl in a few basic colors for low end work, you'd have one cost. Then stock the high end and not have all the in-between levels sitting on your shelf rotting away ?? So it costs 65¢ more to do a job site sign then if you had the other stuff on hand, but your inventory costs are still gonna be lower.
Toady, we don't have that problem. We have printers and flatbeds and worry about head heights more than pennies in vinyl to do a job. However, we still do a ton of die-cut for many of the vehicles we do. We have maybe 80 or 90 rolls of H/P vs about 30 or 40 low end [intermediate] for the low end signs. We also keep translucents, refelctive, gold-leafs and specialty vinyls like spreckeld, diamond plate, gradients, etched mosaics and some other crazy chit.
HulkSmash
New Member
I agree with this 100% except for price.... roll of int. vinyl....is like 95..compared to HP - 400