What's the big secret with the channel letter industry?

[signs_welly]

We're a small shop and we took over this business in 2019 admittedly without a lot of experience (how hard can it be? HAHA). Over the past few years we've learned a lot, screwed up a lot, figured out that we still have a lot of learning to do - but in the midst of it all we've grown the business and have managed to build a decent reputation in the area for providing quality signage and good customer service. We just have this small hang up when it comes to channel letters. When we first took over the shop we met with a local manufacturer who assured us we could double their prices and we'd be rolling in dough from channel letter sales. "This is where the money is!" We'd have to find an installer and do our own permitting. Apparently that was a load of BS because those quotes (not quite doubled but maybe 80% markup) never flew. The installer that was recommended to us as the most reliable in the area doesn't answer his phone and barely responds to email. I almost got rolling with another manufacturer who would do the installation and permits but now I can't get any response back from them either.

I've long given up on channel letters being where the money is for us - at this point I'd just like to make a little for design and handling the customer and have someone reliable to work with so my customers are taken care of. We're in Palm Beach County if anyone knows anyone that they can recommend around here - I'm pretty frustrated at this point and about ready to just tell customers we can't help them with channel letters period. Is there some sort of special lingo I need to use to get a response from people?

 

[Gino]

NO secret, just too many people doing it without permits, sealed drawings and cutting corners so the good guys can't turn a buck. Had someone a little bit ago tell us we were almost twice their price. Turns out, they kept adding things to the bottom line, like, oh you didn't say you wanted a custom color match. Oops, we provide this, but not that. That'll cost ya $XX amount more. We hadda a rent a machine and those costs are on you. Now, it's costing the end-user more than your quote and their still getting a half-a$$ed product, cause they've been cutting corners since the start. So, why compete against 3rd party people ?? Just do it for your own customers and the heck with people who can't do a thing in-house.

You're better off either bringing it entirely in-house or passing on it.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

It's busy, people have more work than they can handle and finding employees is an issue. I don't know why any shop would discount their services to a middle man. I understand that it is not out of the norm for sign places to sub stuff but if you can't do a significant piece of the puzzle i.e. install or fabricate, I don't see the point in even entertaining these jobs. It sounds like you can't pull your own permits because down here, you have to have an electrical sign contractors license. My understanding is many of the independent installers work under someone else's license. Somebody here can correct me if I'm wrong. So why would a customer want to use a middle man when there are already a pile of places capable of doing the entire job in house themselves? Personally, I absolutely can not stand doing work for a middle man. Too much back and forth nonsense. If you're stuck on doing this, go find a turn key shop and see if they will bird dog you for giving them the job and not go after your existing customers in the process.

 

[CanuckSigns]

I agree with the above, we used to try to get a piece of anything that we could, but about 5 years ago we made a firm decision, if we don't either make it or install it we don't want to do it. Relying on subs and vendors will bite you in the ass, Imagine this situation:

Client comes to you for channel letters, you mock them up and send it off to a wholesale manufacturer, get them in and then hand off to an installer, installer wires them up and half of the letters don't light up, manufacturer says your installer messed up, installer says the components are cheap garbage, your client doesn't care they just know they aren't paying you until you sort it out. How do you deal with that?

as Notarealsignguy said, why be a middle man, you take on 100% of the risk for 30% of the profit.

 

[Z SIGNS]

If you can't run with the big dogs stay on the porch

 

[signs_welly]

If you can't run with the big dogs stay on the porch

I'll go back to the porch and weed some more vinyl then, big dog.

Y'all - I don't want to be the middle man - I just want my customers to be taken care of. But at this point - I don't even have anyone I can refer them to. I heard you all. Next time someone comes in asking for channel letters I'll just shrug my shoulders and tell them I don't know anything about those pretty light up signs.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

You don't have to be butthurt, you asked and got an answer. Go buy yourself a router and channel letter bending machine or start doing them by hand if you're so intent on doing them. We get asked to do all kinds of different jobs, it's not because people love us, it's because the 50 other people they called first also said no and I ain't gonna be the one to say yeah. Most people build their business and customer base around their capabilities, that is how you grow a solid business. Proactive vs reactive sales.

 

[signs_welly]

Yep - I appreciate the answer - from you and everyone else who gave answers. Absolutely. Not so much snarky euphemisms.

I'm not intent on doing them - we have a router and could probably add a channel letter bender on if we wanted to but I don't want to. If I can't find someone to work with me, that's fine. I just want to know where to refer good customers who want channel letters.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Do you have any potential to install them? Not sure about FL, but here you need someone with a sign specialist license, ability to pull permits, and of course a crew willing to work outside, as well as either a rental lift or a bucket truck.
Without the ability to install, you are very hamstringed in your ability to deliver the end product. Ever tell your customer that you have their sign, as soon as you can get a truck to hang it, it will be up... I have, its mighty embarrassing. "Aren't you a sign company???" is all the sympathy they'll give you. I'd focus on getting into this position first, rather than getting them built first.
As far as getting them made, we are often looking at numbers from the big wholesalers like signfab, and damn they are pretty close to what it will cost me to build them. They will sell to anybody, including the printer down the street from me, who doesn't have a truck, doesn't pull permits, doesn't have a certified anybody.

It's not easy to get your license in Florida. For someone that came in from outside of the industry, it's damn near impossible. That is part of the problem here with the contractors prices. It also does nothing to keep the jackasses out of trades. If they made it easier, people that were decent at running a business could shake out a bunch of these losers that hold a license but dont know what theyre doing.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

The problem is you're trying to be a middle man when the customer doesn't need it. If you did your own install... MAYBE... but still tough.

The only way to make that work is if you have a client with locations all over the country and placing many orders... then what they really need is the services of a project manager... which really is a middle man. When you have 10-20 or more projects, the client doesn't want to manage that themselves, they have you do it and pay to have that service. Joe blow who wants to open a vape shop doesn't need someone managing their project, so no need for them to deal with a middle man.

 

[Z SIGNS]

I'll go back to the porch and weed some more vinyl then, big dog.

No malice intended. It's just my obscure way of agreeing with what others said.
I heard there is no secret to doing channel letters or any other kinda sign.

You can do it without having to do the fab or install. A good relationship with your team of designers, permit procurer's, fabricators ,installers can make it happen.

Also Nothing wrong with weedin vinyl on the porch

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Godd*mn, just looking at some likely BS website for contractor licensing, you need to essentially work as an installer, up to lead installer, for 4 years, then quit and start your own company. Then you barely have to pass the test.

• Testing Method: Computer-Based (at testing center). Open Book.
• Testing Company: Pearson Vue
• Hours Allotted: 5
• Passing Score: 75%
• Types of Questions: Multiple Choice only.
• Total Number of questions: 100

So you have 5 hours, to lookup answers to 100 questions. That's 3 minutes per question (or 4 minutes if you only aim to get 75 correct in the first place). Then you can miss a quarter of them?? So like overloading you crane by 25% is still passing? Wiring 220 with 3 out of 4 wires correct is passing?
But what gets me is you also need to pass a business exam covering taxes, accounting, payroll, and a bunch of other non-sign related garbage that really doesn't apply to a one man fab and install shop.

What'd I tell you? I could easily get my GC license BUT I don't have the trench time. It's stupid. Now, if I did want or need it I have friends that would sign off saying I worked for them, a "sponsor"
How stupid is that? You take the test with the code book so if you have half a brain, you could pass any of the tests and not know a thing. This is why Florida has so many low life contractors.
You can wire 240v single phase with 3 wires, you don't need a neutral

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Godd*mn, just looking at some likely BS website for contractor licensing, you need to essentially work as an installer, up to lead installer, for 4 years, then quit and start your own company. Then you barely have to pass the test.

• Testing Method: Computer-Based (at testing center). Open Book.
• Testing Company: Pearson Vue
• Hours Allotted: 5
• Passing Score: 75%
• Types of Questions: Multiple Choice only.
• Total Number of questions: 100

So you have 5 hours, to lookup answers to 100 questions. That's 3 minutes per question (or 4 minutes if you only aim to get 75 correct in the first place). Then you can miss a quarter of them?? So like overloading you crane by 25% is still passing? Wiring 220 with 3 out of 4 wires correct is passing?
But what gets me is you also need to pass a business exam covering taxes, accounting, payroll, and a bunch of other non-sign related garbage that really doesn't apply to a one man fab and install shop.

Oh I forgot an important tidbit, it's "invite only.". You have to go before the licensing board and they have to give you the green light before you can even take the exam. So what you end up with is a degrading generation of contractors as the business is passed down

 

[CanuckSigns]

If you want a reliable supplier, who makes a very high quality product, Geminis fabricated letters are very good, but also very expensive compared to the local guys

 

[kcollinsdesign]

It is illegal in Florida (and most everywhere) to "work under someone else's license." There is no gray area. If you are obtaining permits or performing work that requires a license, and the license holder is not on your payroll, you and the license holder are committing a crime. If something goes wrong, and you and the client cannot settle it out-of-pocket, the insurance company attorneys will have a field day with you, and the license holder will have their license revoked. There are far less risky ways to make money.

I suppose if you are just a yahoo with a pickup, worst thing that could happen is you go bankrupt and just keep going. But if you have any equity in your business, you will be putting it at risk.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

For a small shop (under $4M a year), the money is in installation and service. It makes no sense to even think about trying to compete with the wholesale fabricators. Buy your signs from them, mark them up %20 – %40 percent, then make your money on the install.

I have to deal with online companies that offer channel letter signs direct to the customer for less than I pay wholesale. When they find out they need to pull a permit to put them up, they usually also find out that they would have saved money if they came to me in the first place. There is money to be made there, but many new (read inexperienced) businesses prefer to get everything online and call to get someone to "just" put it up at the last minute. The customer needs to be educated. Most of my clients have been with me for years; the new ones shop me incessantly and refuse to develop relationships. The good thing is the new ones quickly flicker out, to be replaced by other new ones, and occasionally you will get one that will stick.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

It is illegal in Florida (and most everywhere) to "work under someone else's license." There is no gray area. If you are obtaining permits or performing work that requires a license, and the license holder is not on your payroll, you and the license holder are committing a crime. If something goes wrong, and you and the client cannot settle it out-of-pocket, the insurance company attorneys will have a field day with you, and the license holder will have their license revoked. There are far less risky ways to make money.

I suppose if you are just a yahoo with a pickup, worst thing that could happen is you go bankrupt and just keep going. But if you have any equity in your business, you will be putting it at risk.

It is but it's more of the norm rather than the exception here. I know people who rent out their license. You can make as much money doing that as you can actually doing work. It's a terrible system. If it was normal here, people like the OP could get a license and not have to worry about stuff like this in the first place.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

It is but it's more of the norm rather than the exception here. I know people who rent out their license. You can make as much money doing that as you can actually doing work. It's a terrible system. If it was normal here, people like the OP could get a license and not have to worry about stuff like this in the first place.

If you are talking about Florida, I agree, it is not normal. I worked in Florida for a few years - it was not easy to get the required licenses (contrary to some opinions earlier in the thread, the electrical test was hard). But we worked along side "licensed" competitors who knew essentially nothing about wiring (voltage requirements, 2-phase vs. 3-phase vs 480, grounding etc). Scary! It seems they all were working under someone else's license, and getting away with it (good old boys network or something). I was using licensed electricians and paying prevailing wage and was still inspected on every job. My local friends put up signs for years and never saw an inspector once!

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Ya gotta love it. We pull permits for everything in our hometown, primarily to avoid getting on somebody's sh*t list, because they really don't bother to see if something is permitted, rather they see what is permitted, go to that site, inspect, while ignoring the neighboring businesses non permitted sign. Recently they added stipulations that monuments need landscaping around them, while at the same time nearly eliminating what most consider directional or incidental signs. We used to put up 3 or 4 directional signs at a bank, now you can't even pull that many permits, and even if you could you would need to landscape around all of them. So now along with the proposal is a line "Landscaping required after sign install by city ordinance 69", we install the sign, the customer doesn't give a f*ck, the city calls us complaining that we didn't landscape around a sign, and we tell them "Ok, but how did the sign look?". Oh, and all of the responsibility and fines for not pulling a permit punish the customer, not the sign company.

That is a big reason that even honest reputable contractors avoid permits whenever they can. The municipality's demands can turn the most basic project into a never ending money pit for the customer. The inspectors drive right by code violations all day long but when you try to be on the up and up by getting a permit, you get on their radar and they start picking at stuff that is totally unrelated.

 

[netsol]

It is illegal in Florida (and most everywhere) to "work under someone else's license." There is no gray area. If you are obtaining permits or performing work that requires a license, and the license holder is not on your payroll, you and the license holder are committing a crime. If something goes wrong, and you and the client cannot settle it out-of-pocket, the insurance company attorneys will have a field day with you, and the license holder will have their license revoked. There are far less risky ways to make money.

I suppose if you are just a yahoo with a pickup, worst thing that could happen is you go bankrupt and just keep going. But if you have any equity in your business, you will be putting it at risk.

kcollins
of course it is illegal, but have you ever known anyone who didn't do it?