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Why the limited gamut?
- Thread starter Colin
- Start date
I've worked with pretty much all the major RIP software packages at this point; my experience with Onyx is somewhat limited, but I've seen decent results produced with it by people who knew what they were doing. I think you can probably get a good profile with any RIP, if you know what you're doing, but it's easier in some RIPs than others.
I will agree that Caldera's current profiling workflow, with the integrated i1Prism v2 engine (which is also used in i1Profiler) yields excellent results with a minimum of guesswork. I'm getting similar profile results to when I was working with Wasatch and ProfileMaker / i1Profiler; the difference is that the profiling workflow with Wasatch is more manual, meaning that it won't automagically guess the best channel limits. However, it was possible to scan a linearization curve (before limiting) in Wasatch and then use the raw data of that to determine your maximum channel saturation. It seems that Caldera realized the same thing and simply built it into the software.
What RandyA is saying about the linearization curves and gray balance is correct, if you're using Onyx. However, if you apply the optimum channel limits and then linearize in either Wasatch or Caldera, you should produce a profile with excellent gray balance.
There's also a G7 process for producing proper gray balance, but aside from making G7 "experts" rich, I haven't seen an application yet that couldn't be met with normal gray balance methods.
I will agree that Caldera's current profiling workflow, with the integrated i1Prism v2 engine (which is also used in i1Profiler) yields excellent results with a minimum of guesswork. I'm getting similar profile results to when I was working with Wasatch and ProfileMaker / i1Profiler; the difference is that the profiling workflow with Wasatch is more manual, meaning that it won't automagically guess the best channel limits. However, it was possible to scan a linearization curve (before limiting) in Wasatch and then use the raw data of that to determine your maximum channel saturation. It seems that Caldera realized the same thing and simply built it into the software.
What RandyA is saying about the linearization curves and gray balance is correct, if you're using Onyx. However, if you apply the optimum channel limits and then linearize in either Wasatch or Caldera, you should produce a profile with excellent gray balance.
There's also a G7 process for producing proper gray balance, but aside from making G7 "experts" rich, I haven't seen an application yet that couldn't be met with normal gray balance methods.
Colin
New Member
So would it fair to say that for me, at this stage of the game, without getting into profiling, the best I can do to get an acceptable (not perfect) neutral gray in my B&W photo prints on my solvent SPi is to make small adjustments to the CMYK settings under the color tab in VW?
eye4clr
New Member
Agreed.
I think so.
eye4clr
New Member
+1
JoshLoring
New Member
P Wagner
--
+ 1.
You never, ever want to adjust the Primary Channel (CMYK) ink limits in an existing profile to correct for problems like neutral grays etc. Those values serve as the foundation for everything else, including the linearization and ICC Profile.
Your best bet is to adjust the tone curves in the Job Properties (for each file), unless you are willing to invest the time and money into learning to manage color properly (ie build custom profiles).
P Wagner
--
Custom_Grafx
New Member
I think he means the "Edit Tone Curves" button in the same area in VW. (sorry if I'm wrong Castek).
Level adjustment gives you general/overall control of each ink, whereas editing tone curves gives you more control of which tones of each (or all) colour/s you'd like to edit.
For example, if you wanted to, you could decide to lay down less cyan in the areas which are heavy in cyan.
Colin, after some thought... for your particular situation, I have an idea, which doesn't require you to spend too much time on equipment, and is something I might use myself for certain types of jobs/customers.
Reason being... even if you nail a grey... what if someone says, nup.. I want a warmer/cooler grey? It's just a PIA... when it comes to b/w photos especially. I reckon ideally, you'd also like to be able to choose from a range of results, as you currently do with the Roland pallette system, and pick one, and be done with it.
I'll PM you something which I hope'll help. If it does, we'll post it to the thread as a solution.
Custom_Grafx
New Member
Well, looks like I can't send you an attachment via PM, and I can't upload a CDR or ZIP file for you, and a PDF would damage the transparency attributes in the CDR...
I'll see if I can email it to you.
I'll see if I can email it to you.
JoshLoring
New Member
I'm truly clueless as to why ANYBODY is adjusting CMYK and tonal curves from Versaworks.
SERIOUSLY?!
If your system is calibrated and set to the right ICC profiles- the only place you should be adjusting ANY colors is in your original file. Adjusting levels in VW is not a solution to the problem. It's only telling you that versaworks doesn't understand your input/output ICC.
You are trying to compensate for color when your final product isn't your problem. It's your profiling...
SERIOUSLY?!
If your system is calibrated and set to the right ICC profiles- the only place you should be adjusting ANY colors is in your original file. Adjusting levels in VW is not a solution to the problem. It's only telling you that versaworks doesn't understand your input/output ICC.
You are trying to compensate for color when your final product isn't your problem. It's your profiling...
Colin
New Member
Again, I'm not doing this with any color images, just B&W photos, as I'm experiencing the all too common problem of the grays (on these solvent printers) being too far off of a nice neutral tone.
JoshLoring
New Member
Colin said:
Colin- send me your file
Josh [[at]] AwthentiK.co
I've been printing perfect grays for years and NEVER adjusted within versaworks. If your file is the issue I will make you an action script to fix it.
The common problem with printing grey is not the printer, it's profiling. I've printed entire motorhomes in grey..
JoshLoring
New Member
Colin said:
I'm positive it's your files/ICC's and not the printer. Do you have Logmein on your pc?
Colin
New Member
Isn't the profile they supplied/emailed me the ICC that you're referring to?
JoshLoring
New Member
Colin said:
That ICC is only for ink.
It will only translate I'd your PC and Rip are synchronized.
Correct profiling equation:
PC ICC profile
+ Software ICC creation and export
+ RIP PC ICC
+ Media ICC
=Correct color output
Jack Knight1979
New Member
this is gospel
You're right that it's wrong.
Those look to me like the Ink Restrictions.
Here is the common process for building a complete media profile (one part of which is the ICC profile).
1. ink restrictions: how much ink goes down for 100% of each individual full color ink. Generally doesn't include light inks at this stage.
2. linearization: a simple process of reading evenly incremented values for each C, M, Y, and K. Includes the light inks if there are any.
3. test for and sometimes impose Ink Limits: how much combined CMY and K are allowed to create max black.
4. build ICC profile: the easiest step in the process. This is the "smart" part of the media profile that provides the mechanism to convert incoming files to accurate color for your specific printer/ink/media/rip combination.
The only step that really takes any finesse is the ink restriction. If your rip doesn't do it automatically or does a bad job, you need to measure C and M color ramps with a proper spectophotometer to find the maximum saturation of each color, that becomes the restriction value for that individual color. Y gets used to balance the C and M to improve overall grOfey balance performance to not make the icc work too hard to remap color values and set you up to sometimes print without the icc and still get sell-able color. This is done by eye and takes a bit of color editing skill.
I don't know of any people who do color management that "tweak" media profiles after they're made. If done properly you don't need to tweak them. That's not to say there are those to tweak the performance of the ICC. But they are few and tend to be in the crazy fine art or photography market. In other words they don't use solvent machines. Do know that tweaking the ink restrictions undermines the whole construct of the media profile. Everything is built on top of the ink restrictions. So, tweak at your own peril.
