Window Vinyl, Sign Permits and Customers Service

[StopSignGraphics]

I suspect I'm not the only one who runs into this.

Go to a customers business and the would like vinyl letters on the exterior of a window. In my town, businesses are allowed one sign for their business, that can be a fascia sign or a road sign and they are also allowed graphics for their main entry way door.

So unless the customer is willing to allow me to put the vinyl on the interior of the window, it's not allowed by the code. Often the windows are tinted and the interior mounted vinyl doesn't have the same "pop" as the exterior. I try explaining it that an exterior mount violates the sign ordinances, they quickly will look around and say "well that business has graphics on the outside of their window and so does that one". I try telling them that just because the inspector hasn't noticed it yet, it's still in violation of the code.

I try explaining to them they risk a fine from the city if the inspector ever notices and removal of the sign. It makes the customer uneasy, since other businesses have vinyl lettering it makes me feel like an idiot for bring it up but I don't feel right not informing them they are violating the ordinances.

So we try to run an honest shop and obey the sign codes (even if we don't agree with them).... how do you folks handle that? Just make vinyl and apply and let it be the customers problem if they are caught? The last thing I want is someone buying something from us and having the customer calling me in six months complaining that I need to remove their vinyl per the inspector.

 

[Marlene]

So we try to run an honest shop and obey the sign codes (even if we don't agree with them).... how do you folks handle that? Just make vinyl and apply and let it be the customers problem if they are caught? The last thing I want is someone buying something from us and having the customer calling me in six months complaining that I need to remove their vinyl per the inspector.

I too live in a place where there are strange codes to live by too. if after you explain that this is not in compliance with the local sign code and they still want to do it, you can put it all in writing. on the contract, include very detailed, in writing that the sign codes were exlained to the customer and that they assume all responsibility for all repercussions for violating the codes including fines and removal of vinyl letter. make them sign off on that part of the contract that they have read and understand and if they are dumb enough to still go forward, do it

 

[StopSignGraphics]

Yeah that's typically what we do but it turns customers off and I know we've lost some business because of it.

I've been tempted to call the inspector and report violations since we try to follow the regs, however I don't want to be that guy but I may have to be.

The only thing I can say is that if the business is on one of the main roads the inspector will more than likely find them in violation and if they are in a less travelled area then the chances of the inspector noticing seems to go way down.

~Chris

 

[fresh]

We ignore the whole "window etching must be on the inside of the window" part of any sign ordinance. Its a stupid rule, particularly if the windows are tinted, and we have NEVER had a client come back to us for not conforming.

 

[Gino]

We have some doozey codes on the books also. I believe it's become the norm in the last 20 or so years to have these crazy conditions. However, if you know right from wrong and state them to your customer and they still want you to disobey the law, I don't see how you can do it at all ?? In order to get the permit to meet the requirements, you have it in writing that you can't do it, so why would you think making someone sign a waiver is gonna hold any credence ?? Oh yeah, I know you can't go through that stop sign, but if you sign this little paper of mine, you can still do it and I won't get in any trouble.

Nope, it does not work that way. You can't go around installing known unlawful signs or handing them off for them to apply, get paid and think you're not involved. While you might not get into any trouble the first time, they will be watching you if they know you are purposely violating their codes and making their job that much harder. You will soon find it hard to operate your business in that town.... and word will spread to neighboring town and villages.

Either find a better grade of customer or a line of work, where you can't get in trouble breaking the law. Yeah, I'll sign this paper and if I rob this bank, you're telling me I can cause I really need the money, right ??

 

[shoresigns]

I think sign permits are a bit of mess in most places. Here we have too many municipalities with different rules. Our city is actually divided into two separate legal municipalities, further complicating things.

If the sign is big or electrical then it would be irresponsible and potentially dangerous to install it without making sure the permit is done properly. For anything else, most sign shops know, and I've had enough "between you and me" comments from the municipalities to know that they are also well aware: most of the bylaws are unenforceable, the rules get bent and broken all the time and if they did enforce the bylaws for any issue other than safety, they would be doing more harm than good to their local economy.

 

[StopSignGraphics]

I think the bending of the rules is what's problematic for us.

We try to follow the codes and have a good reputation and relationship with town. And I agree, having the customer signing a waiver doesn't really protect us either. Maybe it protects us from the customer coming after us demanding to be reimbursed for the sign but they'll still be pissed.

Last week I went a job site, informed the customer that what they wanted was against town codes unless I put it on the inside of the glass. This is a large reputable business, probably a couple of hundred employees. It's difficult to get them to understand the codes when every other business in the same complex has vinyl on the outside of the window.

Long story short, they've got someone else that's willing to do it and go against the town code. It just burns me up that I feel that I'm doing the right thing by a potential customer just to lose business because of it. Eventually they may get fined and have to remove the sign but until then I look like the bad guy.

~Chris

 

[CanuckSigns]

Our City doesn't even know who is responsible for issuing sign permits, every time I call to ask a question, I get bounced between 5-10 different people, some of which are completely unaware there is such a thing as a sign by-law in our city.

As a result, most companies around here don't worry about a permit unless it's a large electrical sign requiring an engineer to sign off.

 

[StopSignGraphics]

To give you an idea of how goofy it is around here, one town over limits signs to 4 colors. Ok that's no big deal I thought, turned out the mounting hardware is counted as part of the colors. I had to go back out to the job site and paint the top of 2 screws white because the inspector had an issue the silver color of the screws on a 5ft x 10ft sign. Seriously two screws, the rest of the screws where already painted white, I think we just miscounted or missed a couple (don't even remember) and used what we had in the truck.

I think the inspector must have got a pair of binoculars because it wasn't even visible from the ground.

Yeah they are that serious.

~Chris

 

[QuickSilver2605]

The sign regs in my area are crazy too. A lot of places purchase banners and just stick them up themselves, however, for my area you have to have a permit for any temp. signs. They can only be up for so many consecutive days, have to be down for 12 days or so before being able to be put back up, and can only be up so many days of the year. A lot of places ignore this rule and I can't count how many times I have had to explain that we have to get a permit even for banners.

 

[Desert_Signs]

The city I'm located in does not allow you to put your business name on your door.

Everyone does it, but I got nailed for it because I had to call for an inspection of our fascia sign. I asked if I could put our website. He said yes. It's our business name, so I just cut www. and .com out of tiny letters and put that in front and back. He said that was OK.

 

[Rick]

I too live in a place where there are strange codes to live by too. if after you explain that this is not in compliance with the local sign code and they still want to do it, you can put it all in writing. on the contract, include very detailed, in writing that the sign codes were exlained to the customer and that they assume all responsibility for all repercussions for violating the codes including fines and removal of vinyl letter. make them sign off on that part of the contract that they have read and understand and if they are dumb enough to still go forward, do it

I think codes are a good thing... imagine the free for all there
would be with window graphics everywhere. good layouts, hack
jobs...

This is what happens when hacks runamuk... can't wait for code
enforcement to come, I now have to look at that every day!

 

[visual800]

We do classy work and i dont bother with getting permits unless its a large electrical sign, channel letters or monuments. Dealing with permits is a waste of time and money. If we do good work and stay in the realms of what is expected i personally dont see the point. Permits are nothing more than revenue collections, pay us for nothing or pay us to get drug thru hell.

as far as op I would do the lettering. If you look around and others have it why not?

 

[StopSignGraphics]

Just wow! That's all I got to say about that sign.

I think codes are a good thing... imagine the free for all there
would be with window graphics everywhere. good layouts, hack
jobs...

This is what happens when hacks runamuk... can't wait for code
enforcement to come, I now have to look at that every day!

 

[Mosh]

We had this problem in our town until the code where re-written. my point was 1/8" of glass cost my customers $100's in permit fees, so what about McDonalds and all there window signs? I guess it all comes down to if someone complains.

 

[Gino]

We had this problem in our town until the code where re-written. my point was 1/8" of glass cost my customers $100's in permit fees, so what about McDonalds and all there window signs? I guess it all comes down to if someone complains.

No, not at all.

Malls, certain establishments using a certain amount of square footage foot & traffic-wise, strip malls, shopping centers and other large establishments have what is known as a 'Blanket Account/Permit'. They have special permission to go above and beyond what maybe their neighbor can not do, but they did it the right way. There's also something called 'Variances'. Apply for one of them and you can do far more than the average customer just following standard procedure.

To some of the others........ telling someone to purposely break the law, just because you do it is not very responsible. Just because you might break the law and get away with it, doesn't mean they will. Some people still do things by obeying written laws. Those of you who don't obey and take the laws into your own hands and decide what you want and will do should not be handed out as good sound advise. It should be followed up with... do as I say, not as I do.

Rick's picture is perfect for just this. No one in their right mind would ever let that go up, if proper channels had been followed. However, your telling people to do what they want is giving those very hacks permission to just make this country a junk yard of signs..... and badly littered with dumb stoopid excuses. Well, they told me I could on s101..........

 

[GaSouthpaw]

The first sign shop I worked in had to worry about making sure which permits were required, as there were not only city ordinances, but county and historic district regs, too. They were quite arbitrary and, sometimes, contrary to one another.

But, I'm squarely in the "get a permit if it needs a permit" camp. And I'm not willing to risk fines/bad relations with the permitting folks by taking a "damn the consequences" attitude if the customer won't follow the rules.

A number of years ago, a customer wanted a quote on a "small" pool rules sign to bring her subdivision's pool up to snuff with the county. Through the course of 10 phone calls (in the days before the interwebs), I kept telling her that the local health department demanded the copy on such signs be a minimum of 1" tall and had to have certain verbage to be considered "official"- but she insisted she didn't want the big sign this would call for, just a small on that would "get them approved by inspectors." I finally wished her luck and told her there was nothing I could do to help her and suggested she try one of our competitors.
She ended up calling me back the Wednesday before Memorial Day and paying something like triple the original quoted price for a rush sign the correct size so the pool would be open for the holiday weekend- after the sign she wanted failed the inspection.

 

[visual800]

No, not at all.

To some of the others........ telling someone to purposely break the law, just because you do it is not very responsible. Just because you might break the law and get away with it, doesn't mean they will. Some people still do things by obeying written laws. Those of you who don't obey and take the laws into your own hands and decide what you want and will do should not be handed out as good sound advise

if someone doesnt wanna hear the truth they shouldnt post. Some of you act like permits are a damn national law and offense would result in prison time. Everything I personally say is my opinion whether one takes it or does not is not my issue.

 

[MikePro]

if you look around, and others have it as well, then you should be granted a variance. its yet another step in the permit process but, with due diligence, your reasonable request will be heard.
ordinances, regulations, & permits are really just a way for the city to be allowed the final say in what goes up and what doesn't. is it that big of a surprise?

if you want to skirt around it, more power to ya, but don't be surprised when your client gets a big fat fine
...& takes you to court or simply doesn't pay the remainder of your invoice because "you're the sign guy and should have known better."

Get a permit, or just simply give them the sign with instructions for install and let them plead ignorance with the city when they come a-knockin'. But don't quote me on it.

 

[Stanton]

I suspect I'm not the only one who runs into this.

So we try to run an honest shop and obey the sign codes (even if we don't agree with them)....

Inform your customer of the law, sell and inform them of what they want.

Vinyl in the window is not a UL thing. It's a city thing. Not your problem.

City code is a bunch of old ladies forcing people to live in the 1950's.

Just sell your product.


Don't trash up the windows. You and your customer know best.


Not your problem.

 

[jen.reelez]

Honest agreements and obedience to the rules are factor for success.

Anyway, this situation is quite related to the topic (in a mentoring meeting yesterday): about how to handle problems and tensions in a business, or at home. I learned that that there are some problems that we must not solve because that will cause another problem. It's about leadership and that leadership is not about being always fair but listening to both sides, accepting the downside of my view and realizing the upside view of others and then make some adjustments. Will check out if there's a video on it on youtube. It's a wonderful topic and likewise practical..