Wooden sign for cafe - advice please :-)

[ruffback]

Hello everyone,

I've designed a wooden sign for a local cafe and we've already had a half-size (3ft) mock-up done in pine - fully CNC routered (by a friend who's keen to get better at this process) at varying levels to create a nice effect.

Now we have to source some beautiful (nice grain), durable wood for full-size version (perhaps as long as 7ft). We're planning to stain the sign (two tone) and will be having the letters painted. Our main issue is that this San Francisco cafe is south facing in full sun for most of the day - it's going to need some serious sealing / protection and upkeep I think.

So... a few Qs off the top of my head:

1) Is Cedar our best choice.. given that we're routering it? If not, what might be a better choice?

2) Any tips on how to source the right kind of wood and what should we bear in mind (vertical grain etc)?

3) How should this - or another type of wood - ideally be treated? UV, water protection, etc... Any specific products to
recommend and the sequence of all this given we'll be staining? We're not sure what to do with the outer rim of the sign either.

4) Anything else we need to know? It's been a real learning curve getting this far. As my first sign design I'm really happy with it.. would hate to see it fall apart within a few months!

Thanks so much everyone - really appreciate the time anyone takes to respond.

Jason

 

[Billct2]

Depending on how those final finishes will look my first suggestion would be to reconsider using wood. If at all possible use signfoam . If it has to be wood it will require regular maintenance

 

[fmg]

Here is a wooden CNC sign we made a few years back and painted with 1 shot enamel.We coated it with three coats of Poly clear and you should see it now.Most of the wood has turned grey after being beaten up in the direct sunlight.It does look good saying that as it has a distressed look.Not sure what the wood was the owner had it shipped in from Virginia and want to use it.We biscuit jointed it together.
Like Billct2 says Foam would be a good option.

 

[Marlene]

you might have to check with a supplier to see if you can get matched wood. when they make panels that size, it's done with pieces glued together and since these are usually painted, the colors of wood don't match up. not sure about cedar as I haven't used that wood before but the woods that I have used, that has been how they are made

 

[Gino]

If you're only routering it, you can use basically use any good outdoor wood available. It doesn't necessarily have to be clear heart or vertical grain. That's geared more towards sandblasting when using redwood or cedar. It serves for a nice appearance, but if you're painting it, it doesn't matter much.

Regardless of what wood you choose, the paint is only gonna last as long as the quality of the paint lasts. The wood has no bearing on the life of the paint.

I would probably use mahogany in this case. It's a good hard wood and endures a lot form the elements. According to the colors being used, it will probably need a face lift about once every 5 or 6 years. Stain the part that you want stained, then prime the painted areas and use two top coats and no clears at all.

The sign someone pictured looks like either oak or pine was used for that, based on the saw marks left behind, plus all the large knots. Oak is a hard wood, but doesn't weather like cedar, redwood or mahogany. It's known for it's ability to ash as with pine which is a soft wood and doesn't weather at all..... with or without paint, stain or any other additives.

HDU is a nice alternative, but it will also need the same face-lift every few years, but it will be much harder to achieve the natural wood grain appearance vs. natural wood.

 

[bleeth]

San Francisco? You are in the right part of the country to get Western Red Cedar for this project and it is the right wood for the job. For the stained and sealed part of the project Sikkens products is a great way to go. For paint you can use exterior Acrylics.
Want to see a ton of examples done this way? Got to www.normansignco.com

 

[OldPaint]

me thinks..........you need to open the kerning on all the letters..........way to close as is, wont show enough separation when painted.

 

[Joe Crumley]

Congratulations on the sign project.

Here are a few personal suggestions for your consideration. First off the type of wood is extremely important with regard to paint adhesion and longevity. If you aren't using vertical grain, it's advisable to have cleates. Flame grain, otherwise knows as flat grain, can be beautiful. Cypress and cedar area two of my favorites. Properly treated they will last for years with very little maintenance.

I assume this panel will be attached to wall. Be sure to have it off-set allowing for moisture to evaporate.
Thanks Dave for the link to my website. It's true I love Sikkens. It comes in a half dozen colors and can be used in conjunction. I love blending them together.
I'd suggest routing the letters down no more that .40". Also I'd lsuggest pocketing the letters as opposed to have them as part of the original panel. That way you can take extra care to seal them up. They will be your most vunearable part of the sign.

Let us know how you do!

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com

 

[ruffback]

Big thanks for the comments everyone. Seems that wood can be tricky but Joe's suggestion of Western Red Cedar seems like a good one. With Sikkens staining. Joe, you think pocketing is safer than raised for the letters? They look better raised though (ie background routered back around them).

What kind of sealing should be done before staining? Or is that after? Do the sealants need to be expandable / elastic - to not crack?

Thanks again.

Jason

 

[ddarlak]

signfoam all the way.

cedar or redwood if you must, but you will have to refurbish the sign earlier than you would a foam sign.

 

[Marlene]

signfoam all the way.

he is going to do a stain so the wood shows. can't use HDU for that

 

[ruffback]

wooden sign - 2 extra Qs

Joe,

Thanks for the detailed information about my wooden sign production. I wanted to clear up a few things if you don't mind. I'm attaching an image I mocked up on the computer for the kind of effect we're going for- a 7ft long sign in exposed wood, stained, fully routered out and with the main letters left raised and painted.

We are currently unclear about wood choice and types of seal / protection - a major concern is this sign will be getting a LOT of sun since this San Francisco cafe is South facing.

1) Is it best to use cedar? What type for a sign this big? (ie what is the issue with vertical vs flat grain?)
We're looking for an attractive piece of wood (lots of visible grain if possible) but also one that will last a long time (if properly treated). Any alternatives we can consider? (you mentioned Cypruss)

2) You suggested pocketing the letters instead of raised - I think now we've done the test sign everyone is attached to the raised letters! I guess we'll have to seal this baby super well! Can you possibly describe the process for that and what type of products we should use to create the effect we're looking for - ie sealing / UV protection, etc.

3) Anything else we need to consider while going down this route?

Thanks once again! (have also sent this in a private message)

Jason

 

[ddarlak]

he is going to do a stain so the wood shows. can't use HDU for that

obviously....

we are in the business of making things look like other things.

you can make an HDU sign look like wood and day of the week and it will last longer....




women.....

 

[bleeth]

Don't see mock-up but-

Here's one way:

If the letters are to be raised you can do the following:

Use Western Red Cedar (Vertical grain). Join the boards and glue them with a good outdoor glue, like Titebond 2.

Put the whole sign on your mill and route a 3-d woodgrain into it for an increased affect. It takes some time but for a big outdoor sign you can use a 1/2" ball nose bit.

Route the letters out as pockets a little deeper than the letters. Finish the whole blank with sikkens stain and finish.

Cut the letters out of PVC (use white-the colors don't do well in the sun) or HDU.

Paint them.

Put them in the pockets with 100% silicone.

Put your cleats on the back with screws and make sure the cleat holes are slots for seasonal movement.

You shouldn't have to refresh the whole sign for some years. The nice thing about a Sikkens finish is it won't flake or peel like varnishes.

How to make your own woodgrain:

4 ways.

1. Find a good photo and use bitmap to relief feature in Artcam,Aspire, or (I think) Enroute.


2. Put together a few boards with a lot of grain charecteristics, sandblast them to accent the affect, stain and wipe to accent further. Take picture and go to first method.


3. Find a texture BMP to download that is tile-able and resize, copy, and paste or block copy as needed. Go to first method.


4. Use a woodgrain texture that comes with the software (Artcam and/or Aspire)

Both Aspire and Artcam come with inlay tools that will handle the sharp corner rounding automatically for you in toolpathing so your letters will fit right. You can also make the pockets a little oversized to create a very nice shadow affect.


Does that sound about right Dr. Crumley?

(I'm not only a "preppie" here, I am a student of the Dr. Crumley School of Wooden Signmaking!)

 

[ruffback]

Wooden sign - more info needed

Joe,

I attached a color mock-up of the wooden stained sign we're doing - could you possibly take a look?

We'll choose a nice piece of Western Red Cedar I think and we just need to know exactly what product (Sikkens) we need to buy to protect it?
There are two on the Sikkens website:
http://www.sikkens.us/en/Products/HomeDepot/Pages/CetolSemi-TransparentSRD.aspx

However the cafe owner seems interested in trying a Sikkens Clear Cetol Marine Varnish - once it's been stained with traditional wood stain - would that work, or would you suggest your own process / method?

How do we get the two tone effect we're looking for? - just lay down more layers of the translucent stain?

Also, you suggested pocketing the letters as opposed to have them as part of the original panel. The guy who is CNC-ing the sign wants to keep the main letters raised - do you think this would be a mistake? If so, why?

Thanks so much for your help! Very appreciated.

Jason

 

[Billct2]

I ain't Joe, but do this type of work also.

How do we get the two tone effect we're looking for? - just lay down more layers of the translucent stain?

Buy two shades of stain or add tint to one

Also, you suggested pocketing the letters as opposed to have them as part of the original panel.

I believe he means to cut the letters seperately & finish them. Then glue them into "pockets" that were cut to accept them.
Given your design the letters could be acrylic or pvc.

 

[Marlene]

he is going to do a stain so the wood shows. can't use HDU for that


obviously....

we are in the business of making things look like other things.

you can make an HDU sign look like wood and day of the week and it will last longer....




women.....

not to be a thread pirate, but WTF is that suppose to mean? women...?????

nothing looks like wood grain like wood grain unless you are a mster faux painter. you can make a wood grain pattern in HDU but it only mocks sandblasted wood that has been painted unless you do a faux painting to get all the color variations that you would get staining natural wood

men...

 

[coyote]

we have used Sikkens Marine Cetol for a large mahogany sign: read directions carefully. It's to be used on bare wood, so no paint or stain unless its compatible. Sikkens makes a gloss UV topcoat that goes with their product.

For cedar & redwood, try stain products made for decks and fences-they do a good job. We use latex house paint for lettering-either raised or incised. It works really well, but can't be applied over oil based stain. We have signs that have been up and exposed to the elements for 20+ years. They do need maintenance over time, but everything exposed to UV does. Have a care when you glue up your panel-it's critical to use the right kind of glue and don't skimp on the board: Don't use anything thinner than 5/4 or it will warp. Finish both sides of the panel with the same stuff, again to avoid warping/rotting.

I'm with the HDU fans, however. We rarely use wood these days unless the customer specifically requests it. You can finish the sign to look like wood.

 

[John Butto]

Marlene's world

not to be a thread pirate, but WTF is that suppose to mean? women...?????

nothing looks like wood grain like wood grain unless you are a mster faux painter. you can make a wood grain pattern in HDU but it only mocks sandblasted wood that has been painted unless you do a faux painting to get all the color variations that you would get staining natural wood

men...

Marlene, WTF

 

[ruffback]

Still doing wooden sign...

I actually have another question about wood - mahogany? Anyone got any experience or thoughts on working with this wood type for a CNC-routed sign?

We're basically looking for a nice, durable wood for routing / staining. Cedar might best but the samples we got were a bit lacking in visible grain.

And what's the deal with choosing wood that's vertical grain rather than horizontal? I know nothing about this.

Thanks all as usual!

Jason