Question Worth losing a customer because I don't trust their engineering?

[appropriate1]

A long time customer asked me to build two billboards with faces 8 x 15 feet, bottom of sign 7 feet off the ground, with only a treated 6 x 6 at each end., set in concrete 12 inches by 96 inches deep. I don't think it is nearly strong enough and will not last their required 15 years. I think posts will crack between the ground and the sign bottom. They are confident it is sufficient, but I have declined the job based on liability for doing something I fear will fail with a strong windstorm. Hiring a structural engineer to run the numbers would cost me $750 and if the engineer agrees with me not to do the job as shown, the fee cannot be recovered. So, any opinion on the structure? Any opinion on saying no when I think I am right? I've been doing this 41 years and never fixed one of my own, but plenty of other failed bilboards. Thanks. Rob

 

[CanuckSigns]

I agree with you, the frame needs to be made from steel, where on earth are you going to find 20 foot PT 6x6s that are even remotely straight?

I would explain to the client that at the end of the day you are the one liable for this sign, not them, and you are not comfortable putting it up without an engineer stamp, ask them to pay for the engineer.

 

[signage]

Wouldn't this sign need permits to be installed? Also can you even get 6" x 6" over 24' feet long, (8+7+8+ what ever to finial/post caps=23' +)

 

[MikePatterson]

Permit or not, that needs engineering. And no wood is not going to be acceptable. What do they have supporting the sign panels?

I would personally give the client the option of building per the engineer's drawings with a deposit of the engineering fees and some extra for your time. Give them the plans afterwards. Then produce a quote based on the drawings. I think you will be surprised at how much steel is called for in a sign that size.
If I had to guess by stuff we have done it will call for 24"X96" piers, 12" 30LB I-Beam posts, and a structural matrix of probably 2"X4" rectangle tube between the I-beam.

 

[Stacey K]

It doesn't state if you or the business got a permit. My assumption is this was still in the planning stage and you have not yet requested a permit. You could have played a little game and went ahead and applied for the permit but at the same time had a conversation with the inspector about your concerns. I have to believe the inspector would agree with everyone here posting. That way, it's not really your decision, it's the "law" making the decision and you could tell the client you need to go back to the drawing board. That way you can at least keep the job. If he is on a budget and cannot afford to do it to code, perhaps a smaller version would have to suffice.

 

[Gino]

There are ways, but is this sign single or double sided ?? Never, as in Never, allow a customer to dictate how they want a sign made or installed.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

$750 sounds high.

Tall signs like that use PT piling like telephone poles.

 

[rjssigns]

There are ways, but is this sign single or double sided ?? Never, as in Never, allow a customer to dictate how they want a sign made or installed.

This^^^^ and run Forrest run!!!

In my area when you pull a permit you are responsible for the lifetime of that sign.

 

[ProSignTN]

Show him this. If he can explain it you, will build it for him, lol.

Sigma(allowable)=0.3*E/(L/d)**2
0.3*E/(L/d)**2=P/A
=P/d**2

solve for d, d=5.26" ok use d=5.5 nominal dim

checking normal stress;
Sigma=P/A
=30,000/(5.5)**2
=991 psi

Seriously, I could engineer the sub frame from timbers, but the post are less than half enough sheer strength. Besides wood will rot at the ground, which is the weak point of any post.

 

[Lance]

Have you ever had any previous issues with this client wanting 'off the books' jobs done ?
Perhaps ask the client to apply for a permit, at least then the authorities will be aware of a pending job and if the sign does go up without the necessary permits (which may well happen) you bum is covered, and the sign will come down again.
If he doesn't understand why there is a permit requirement you're probably better off without him on your books.

 

[StephenOrange]

Nope, just nope.
At best they can get somebody else to manufacture their crappy frame and you can supply the print. But I would even go that far.

 

[stamford signs]

I have run into situations where a good customer is requesting something that is totally wrong. I tell them …
I rather you be mad at me now that
I don’t take the project than mad after it fails and we both have a big problem

 

[kcollinsdesign]

How do you know the engineer will cost $750.00? If he is just "running the numbers" based on your (or the customer's) drawings, it will likely cost considerably less. If you ask him to design a system that will work, it will likely cost more.
Most of the time, obtaining a preliminary estimate costs in the range of $250 - $500, and stamped drawings twice that (or more). That's quite an investment when you may not even get the project! I've tried in the past to get a non-refundable deposit from the client for design fees and engineering costs. In over 40 years of being in the sign business it has never happenned!

 

[appropriate1]

Thank you for all the comments. Thankful no one said I was wrong in my assumptions it was too weak. To answer StephenOrange, I did offer to make just the sign faces to fit their own construction, if they wanted to do that. To answer kcollinsdesign, the engineer that does calculations will charge me $350 minimum, but if I wanted it stamped with his seal, it is $750. I have used him before on jobs that required an engineer's stamp. So yes, in this case it may have only been $350 for my proof. To answer many that referred to the permit....The sign is part of a huge residential development that has been in the works for ten years, planting their own trees and doing most thing themselves. They are in a very small town (population) that covers a large geographic area and the town really welcomed them in for all of the property tax dollars that will follow. I have done several smaller signs along the way for them and they pay instantly and have been very good to work with in the past. They just now started actually building and selling houses and that is the billboard need. Because of the large development approval and maybe some politics, they can do whatever they want on their property and no permits are required for any signs they do along the way, as it falls under their overall project package. So, I have already said no to the frame part of the job twice and been clear about libilities and disagreeing with their "confidence," as they told me, so I if I lose them now, I do. Great comments and I appreciate them all. Thanks.

 

[McDonald Signs]

We have built small billboards out of 6x6 Treated Posts but not without a good 2x4 or 2x6 framing attached to the 6x6 posts.
The sign in your drawing looks like a strong wind would snap the 6x6's into at the ground being 15ft apart.
And I don't see how you could make the sign now "bow" in a 15ft span in wood without using steel.
I would quote that drawing in steel posts and steel framing.
I have built some small billboards that size or larger 20ft wide but always had at least 3 to 4 6x6 posts holding the sign up
with a good 2x4 frame to attach the sign faces.

 

[ProSignTN]

McDonald Signs, Sweet work and great pics too. I'm impressed. I believe you could design and build a frame for this sign, same as me. The problem is the posts. Two post, 10"x 10", minimum. You can't buy them at Home Depot or Lowes.
approprite1, google around for Pilings. You need to move further up the lumber chain.

 

[netsol]

although home depot has about $120B in annual sales, i always say they give you a poor consolation prize, you go in thinking how your project is going to go.
they have 1 dismal alternative, much worse than what your "Plan C" was going to be, if they were out of everything from your first 2 ideas

i guess they are to the building trades what radio shack was to electronics

 

[White Haus]

We have built small billboards out of 6x6 Treated Posts but not without a good 2x4 or 2x6 framing attached to the 6x6 posts.
The sign in your drawing looks like a strong wind would snap the 6x6's into at the ground being 15ft apart.
And I don't see how you could make the sign now "bow" in a 15ft span in wood without using steel.
I would quote that drawing in steel posts and steel framing.
I have built some small billboards that size or larger 20ft wide but always had at least 3 to 4 6x6 posts holding the sign up
with a good 2x4 frame to attach the sign faces.

That's a really nice finished product! Looking at the completed pictures you would never guess it has a wood skeleton inside.

Do you use ACM or MDO for the faces/cladding?

 

[McDonald Signs]

ACM with Stainless Steel Square Drive Screws attaching the ACM to the treated wood framing

 

[johnnysigns]

I would trust your gut impression and just move on. You're definitely in the chain of companies involved that would get dragged into a lawsuit if the sign fails as is.