Bubbles in foil 2 days after application

[ddubia]

What a headache to walk into this morning.

The attachments are showing bubbles in the foil I applied Friday. When it went down Friday it looked great. I stopped in the shop on Saturday and it looked the same. Like a freaking mirror. I was really pleased and knew the customer would be as well when we install it Monday afternoon.

So I walk in this morning, (Monday), to find an entire species of bubbles have moved in and for the life of me I don't know how it happened over the weekend. Especially since it looked great the day after it was applied.

The sign is HDU routed for a 3D effect. It was painted with a Sherwin-Williams latex green paint. Sprayed in three coats. Knowing the foil would not stick to the latex I top coated the letters with a waterborne clear which my supplier insures me is made for this purpose.

After about 5 hours of drying I lightly sanded with 400 just to rid it of the small particles that settled on the surface. The finish was smooth as glass.

I applied the foil and as I said above it looked great. It looked great the next day as well.

But come Monday morning and it's a mess. To boot, it is supposed to be installed this afternoon. If this were cut vinyl I would pin prick a few of the larger bubbles and insure the customer that the rest would go away soon. I could relax in knowing that. But with this being foil I don't know that it will.

Seems to me it couldn't.

Has anyone experienced this before. What might I have done wrong in the preparation or application. I don't have enough foil left to do this over today. The letter sizes are approximately 30 x 35 so it's a costly repair. That would be fine if I knew it wouldn't happen again.

Here in NE Ohio it has been hot and very humid. The signs have been lying, foil up, on the bench all this time. I'm wondering if that has anything to do with it. The clear coat I applied seems totally dry before I applied the foil so I'm trying to rule out any outgassing of that coat. But I'm beginning to wonder about the latex coat that is under it. It sat for close to three days before I clear-coated it but now I'm wondering if it was completely dry even then.

The customer ordered two of these for a big open house, grand opening that is this Friday. So I don't have the luxury of sitting on it.

Can I install these in hopes that the bubbles will eventually go away or am I doomed? I'm really pulling my hair out this morning and it's way too early to start drinking... or is it?

 

[Billct2]

You say the HDU was routed? But these are flat letters correct? What brand "foil" did you use?
I would suspect the paint is the problem. "Foil" doesn't "breath at all so any trapped moisture is a real problem.
If you have a router a quick soution would be to rout the letters out of some black 2 0r 3mm PVC, apply the film to these and then mount them in place.

 

[omgsideburns]

is the paint outgassing?

 

[ddubia]

The brand was "FDC Graphic Films" from Grimco.

I suspect the paint as the problem as well.

Yes, the letters are flat. I first wet sanded the flat surface with 400 then hosed it off well. Then applied the clear coat the next day. The following day I knocked off the small particles that had gotten into the clear coat with 400. Just enough to knock them off. That same day I applied the foil.

Your idea of routing PVC and applying the foil may be the only solution. Darn thing is the white stripe that has to be applied. I'm sure I could work that out though.

I really hate to tell the customer at this point that the signs are not ready to install. I'm sure it will make them nervous considering their big splash they're wanting to make on Friday.

Don'tcha hate it when there's not time enough for error and then there is one?!

 

[ddubia]

is the paint outgassing?

That's what I'm guessing. It's water-based latex that had at least three day to dry. But it's so humid here these past few weeks that I'm in agreement that the paint is the problem.

I should have put this in Pat's "everything went wrong" thread.

 

[Steve Werner]

For what it's worth I've talked to Sherwin Williams about outgassing with wall graphics and they recommend a minimum of two weeks before applying graphics to a painted surface. They said paint could outgas for up to a month.

 

[ddubia]

Wow!

That pretty much seals the deal then. Things like this is why I don't like working with water based paints. I'm an old sign painter. I understand one-shot and the primers I've always used for that. But these acrylics and latex stuff, not so much.

I won't be able to get more foil until Wednesday. That will really be pushing it for a late Thursday deadline. (which was supposed to be today).

The boss is out of town. So that leaves it up to me to do all the 'splainin' to the customer whom I've not dealt with myself as yet.

 

[Marlene]

is this for an outdoor sign or inside? the 2800 FDC poly is only a two year vinyl. inside, you will get more time out of it and it will most likely work just fine but outside, not a good choice of product for the job.

 

[Shnyda]

You Did everything right, except you didn't wait for either Paint to gas. Been there way too many times. You should have waited a min. of 24 hrs before topcoating with the clear and a min. of 48 before applying the foil. If your shop humidity is high give both an extra day or get the sign into the air conditioning.

 

[Mosh]

FDC Graphic Films SUCK! The outgas is the problem here but stay away from the FDC. I learned that the hard way.

 

[ddubia]

Marlene, this is an outdoor sign. The R-Tape part number is E-3101 and claims 5-year outdoor durability. I hate using foils but his stuff cuts and weeds great. Looks good too until the paint out gasses 6 days later just to challenge my stress level.

I'm going to cut 2mm PVC letters as Billct2 suggests, put the foil on that and apply it using contact cement unless someone can come up with an objection to that. I'm really adamant that the letter lay flat and contact cement is the only way I can think of that will set in a hurry and be good to go upon application.

Now I've got to get more foil here by next-day delivery and have everything else ready to go when it gets here.

Oh yeah, the big hoop-tee-doo is Thursday, not Friday as I thought the date was Friday the 12th. It's not. Turns out that Friday is the 13th. Thursday is the 12th. Friday the 13th is trying to get a jump on me I guess.

 

[ddubia]

Mosh, I got what I could get. You learned not to buy FDC film. Did you learn then which one to buy?

 

[Marlene]

Marlene, this is an outdoor sign. The R-Tape part number is E-3101 and claims 5-year outdoor durability

I thought you said it was FDC? most poly/shiny vinyls don't hold up all that great outside.

 

[ddubia]

The sticker inside the roll says "FDC Graphic Films, Inc. Outdoor Durable Series" and also has the R-Tape logo which says "R-Tape VinylEfx" and includes the R-Tape number E-3101.

One of them must make the other. Maybe R-Tape distributes FDC, I don't know.

 

[iSign]

I agree with Marlene about most poly chromes.. and although this suggestion has it's drawbacks, I'll offer it anyway. If you edge print a chrome onto a good 2 mil cast vinyl, you get more predictable results, like you expect from vinyl. What you don't get is long term outdoor durability, and you also will have seams in a letter that size.

I usually think seams are minor when letters that size are clearly intended to be seen from a distance, but I'm sure the effects of lighting on chrome will make the seams show up more then standard colored vinyl. If I did that, I'd at least make the seams line up from letter to letter & break it in equal thirds.

The other thought is a complete switch to silver metallic. I personally don't like that chrome look very often, (I'm only guessing that your "foil" is a chrome look... from the pics, it seems that it is) so if a cast silver metallic vinyl would go down fast, (without seams) save the cost of rushing out 1/8" routed PVC & an overnight chrome foil delivery... could it get them looking "good enough" for the bid day, and save the final solution for when the rush is off? (assuming these are installed where re-visiting them doesn't cost an arm and a leg)

 

[gnemmas]

I would use .040 aluminum instead of PVC for redo. Different layers of plastic contract differently under the weather.

 

[ddubia]

iSign, they are right in town, about a 10 minute drive.

Seams won't work as they are wall signs with one of them right at the entrance with a bout a 5 foot viewing distance. Also, they are lighted by spots.

I don't care so much for the "chrome look" either. But these signs are replacing the old ones and they wanted exact replicas.

I really wish the silver metallic would work. Had I thought of that I'd have offered it, as you say, until the rush is over. But they've already been promised a finished job on time. Dang, I wish I'd thought of that.

 

[iSign]

if you can get acrylic mirror, you could substitute for the PVC & have the thing done in the same time as cutting & adhering the PVC
(I got mine from Piedmont Plastics on the west coast... i forget who makes it, but I've seen it discussed here)

 

[Marlene]

there's a lot of effort put into this sign. I would have gone one step farther and stud mounted laminated polished sliver letters. Gemini makes the laminated letters now and that would be a nice way to do a sign like this. I hope the poly settles down for you and doesn't delaminate.

 

[MikePro]

+1 to paint outgassing.
we wait at least a day before applying any vinyl graphic to painted surfaces, sometimes two.

I still can't wax my car because I just had a door repainted that needs to outgas properly over the next two months.