Client's email leaves me at a loss for words...

[bigwebman]

Gigi, that looks much better. I think that the first draft conveyed more of your frustration with these people, but signmeup was probably right, they might forward it around, and you really don't want that. You have handled this in a very professional manner, giving them more than their money's worth. You can hold your head high knowing you took the high road.

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

i do not enjoy giving out client files either but as mentioned if they are shopping...well that's business you win some you lose some. but clients like this one i would gladly give them my files and wish them well, some clients are more work than they are worth and it is ok to let some of them go...in fact you may find it is actually a relief to let some of them go.

 

[pointjockey]

my two cents....you are telling this guy things he knows already knows :he's trying to get free work...let it go. The next thing that's going to happen is he gonna go around bad mouthing you and you will lose business regardless. Something plain and to the point will work best for this soon to be ex-customer. Read my first post. Put the monkey on his back. not yours.

 

[signmeup]

That reads a lot better than the first one. You should never write emails when you're angry. It still leaves no doubt that your telling him to "sod off" but at least it's polite, and spelled properly.

I would think you'd glad to see the back of these people after all the hassle they've put you through.

 

[weaselboogie]

It's not over.

How are you going to handle when they want more work done? You're either going to be the tech support on HOW to use the adobe acrobat or laying this out in word, or they will decide that it's too much work and they'll continue to do things as is. Get a script ready.

 

[iSign]

I think the latest is a winner.
I too have difficulty not identifying where I've felt slighted in those worst of the worst transactions where the ball is in my court, but I just want to bean the F'n losers with it... so I've left a few jabs in my emails on a lot of such situations. Your re-write is great. The only thing I would have the least bit of problem with is once again doing work for free. I would be willing to waive fees to be rid of people like that, but I might consider a mention of standard design fees of whatever your rate, times whatever time assembling files for those discs took...

...which I would expect to be around at least $200. I might then say that since their needs & their budget seem to have changed, I expect they will be happier with ____ Printing in ____. For that reason, I will waive the fees so our work together will not be at risk of ending on a sour note.

If they do wish to work with me in the future, it will require an acceptance of my fee structure which is non negotiable.

I'm not sure that it came across, and I don't have the time to explore the ideal way I might express it, but my intention was that even the ($200?) fee for today's work should be paid, but if the relationship is ending, i will waive the fee, because they are complaining about fees & I don't tolerate that level of satisfaction. If someone's not satisfied... we're done... if they want to act satisfied to use me... they will pay, & their "act" better be good... there are enough appreciative clients around to take a pass on this kind!

 

[astro8]

Gigi,....I'm late to the party but here's some advice you may want to think about for the future...

After so many years of dealing with 'customers' the story usually goes like this and this is what works here...

You design their sign, artwork, brochure, card whatever and produce it, print it whatever. They are happy and they pay for it.

Month or two passes, they ring or email with a request for the artwork, as they want to 'make some changes', 'get some t-shirts printed', whatever. You tell them that you can provide this service. They say 'Oh, no we're doing it ourselves' or 'Our printer needs it'.

Tightarse Alert

My reply is that we can convert our native files into an editable format and put on cd for $100, ($200, $300..whatever we deem a fair amount).

They reply 'blah, blah. blah, blah, whinge, whine, blah.....blah'.

My reply is the we can convert our native files into an editable format and put on cd for $100", ($200, $300..whatever we deem a fair amount).

They either of 3 things happen. They are all in your favour. They either ask you for a quote on what they need, pay the $100-$300 for the cd, or if they are a true tightarse they'll dissappear (which isn't always a bad thing knowing what type of customer they are).

Don't try and explain yourself, reason with or appease them as you had already lost them (you may win the work with this approach) or next thing you know, you'll be posting here for advice on how to deal with these types.

Customers can waste hours of your time, make them pay for it.

 

[Jon Aston]

I agree with pointjockey, gg. And that's the kind of thing I never expected to say, pre- the interwebs.

Take the emotion out of it. Keep it short and sweet. Take and keep control.

 

[GypsyGraphics]

my two cents....you are telling this guy things he knows already knows :he's trying to get free work...let it go.

I thought I was setting him straight on what he apparently didn't remember or understand.

The next thing that's going to happen is he gonna go around bad mouthing you and you will lose business regardless.

In person and on the phone this guys really nice, loves my work, but it's like he's got a split personality. Even in his email he goes from being pissy to professing his loyalty. I'm sure from one day to the next he's signing my praise to one person and complaining to the next. So, all I can do is try to send him away feeling like I gave him files he can work with and tell him I never create files the way he's asking for.

So whether he goes away happy or goes way pissed off, I don't care all that much as long as he goes away. And if I don't give him files that he can mess with, he'll never go away.[/QUOTE]

Something plain and to the point will work best for this soon to be ex-customer. Read my first post. Put the monkey on his back. not yours.

ex-customer... yep, that's the goal.
I went back and read your first post and the advice would be good if I wanted Bob's business. I was hoping for a more "Dear John" affect with this email.
But in the end, I'd like Boopies to be able to use the material I created for her. It's really is very nice. I liked the corporate identity enough to have it in my own brochure. It's a shame that she's not using it. Makes me absolutely sick to hear she resorted to VistaPrint. eewwww!

 

[GypsyGraphics]

I agree with pointjockey, gg. And that's the kind of thing I never expected to say, pre- the interwebs.

Take the emotion out of it. Keep it short and sweet. Take and keep control.

Control? I like that.
Short and Sweet? I am that.
No Emotion? That's a though one!

ugh... thought I was done.

 

[GypsyGraphics]

Month or two passes, they ring or email with a request for the artwork, as they want to 'make some changes', 'get some t-shirts printed', whatever. You tell them that you can provide this service. They say 'Oh, no we're doing it ourselves' or 'Our printer needs it'.

I've been at this for 13 years and every client get their logo and any other work on a CD (only logo in native file). I get several calls a week... "can you send out logo to...." I do it every single time ... no questions asked. If it's a service I offer, I let them know. Not being high pressure has severed me well for many years. With clients worth keeping... I service them to death, they'd be crazy to leave.

My reply is that we can convert our native files into an editable format and put on cd for $100, ($200, $300..whatever we deem a fair amount).

I'm seriously considering coming up with a price for the purchase of native files... if i do, it's gonna be damned pricey.

 

[GypsyGraphics]

I might consider a mention of standard design fees of whatever your rate, times whatever time assembling files for those discs took... which I would expect to be around at least $200. I might then say that since their needs & their budget seem to have changed, I expect they will be happier with ____ Printing in ____. For that reason, I will waive the fees so our work together will not be at risk of ending on a sour note.

If they do wish to work with me in the future, it will require an acceptance of my fee structure which is non negotiable.

Doug, I agree completely, it is perfectly reasonable to charge them $200, for what I proposed but the truth is I believe they really can't afford it. The more I think about this, I'm certain their financial situation is the reason for their frustration. If Joni is able to use her stationery and brochure, she'll have a better chance at bringing in new clients. Annoying or not, I'd like to see things turn around for them.

But I think I will use, word for word ...I expect you'll will be happier with ____ Printing in ____. For that reason, I will waive the fees so our work together will not be at risk of ending on a sour note.

I think I do need to drive home the ENDING part.

 

[royster13]

Sometimes when you "give" what goes around comes around......

 

[iSign]

yes, drive it home with the word, but not the bold type I hope

glad you can my suggestion. I think the reference to the value of a gift is ALWAYS critical, or you become partly responsible for devaluing your services... as Royster says, and you obviously know from experience... giving has it's place... just make sure they know the value of what you give!

(and they should come to you feeling indebted to you if they come at all... they should not come feeling "entitled" anymore)

 

[Jon Aston]

Gypsy:

To expand on my brief comments above, and for whatever it's worth:

I think you're over-complicating the whole Bob and Boopsie thing, in part, because you appear to be flip-flopping on your decision to either "help them out"... or to "fire their sorry asses". Or maybe I am confused(?). I think you need to make that decision first, then revisit how to communicate it.

If you take the emotion out, and look at the facts, I'm guessing that Bob and Boopsie have done nothing but cost you money (lost income) - ever since you did that first identity project for them. I doubt they've sent you any referrals, either, or suspect you would have mentioned that. I can't see how this relationship is anything but one-sided. Bob is a skilled manipulator. You give and they take.

By the way, everyone who has ever dealt with this guy has learned (or will learn) the same lessons, the same way as you: the hard way. So who, exactly, is going to listen to him if he starts badmouthing you?

So what am I leaving out?

Dear Bob,

Thank you for your email. It gave me good reason to review certain policies.

Please find the attached estimate, which details the work you're requesting, based on current rates, terms, and conditions of sale.

Sincerely,

gg

Be prepared for the phone call. "Bob, I'm sorry you find this hard to understand... Yes, I am sure it is upsetting... Bob, I don't blame you. But the facts are that ever since receiving final payment identity project, 10 years ago: I've been donating time to Boopsie's cause - 62.5 hours to be exact - which has resulted in over $6K in lost income for me. I can't afford to be that generous with anyone, Bob. It's not personal."

 

[signmeup]

Jon's got it nailed. Straight to the point, easy to understand, very professional, not personal.

 

[GypsyGraphics]

Gypsy:

To expand on my brief comments above, and for whatever it's worth:

I think you're over-complicating the whole Bob and Boopsie thing, in part, because you appear to be flip-flopping on your decision to either "help them out"... or to "fire their sorry asses". Or maybe I am confused(?). I think you need to make that decision first, then revisit how to communicate it.

No, you're not confused, I have Flip-flopped. The business side of me wants to tell these people to take a flying leap. But the other side can't help but consider client's personal situation. My last email was my attempt to satisfy both.

If you take the emotion out, and look at the facts, I'm guessing that Bob and Boopsie have done nothing but cost you money (lost income) - ever since you did that first identity project for them. I doubt they've sent you any referrals, either, or suspect you would have mentioned that. I can't see how this relationship is anything but one-sided. Bob is a skilled manipulator. You give and they take.

By the way, everyone who has ever dealt with this guy has learned (or will learn) the same lessons, the same way as you: the hard way. So who, exactly, is going to listen to him if he starts badmouthing you?

You could not be more right!!!! I find it so interesting to see how easily so many of you on this site figure this guy out and know exactly what to do to put him in his place. And I'm still sitting here being a.... well i don't think i can say the word that comes to mind but let just say "girl," about the whole thing.

I've said for years as my business has grown, that I'm not cut out for the hard nosed business end of this. I love meeting and working with people, i love designing, i love working in the shop, i love doing installation, i love the reaction of clients when see their logo, marketing, signage for the first time. There is so much i love about my business and one thing i hate... anything and everything about the financial end.

I'm very organized, keep meticulous records, but that in no way makes me capable of handling the financial end of my business. Ask me if I had a successful week last week and what I think of is the client who came to my office out of the blue with a gift. He didn't to discuss a project, haven't done anything for him in six months. He came to tell me how well their business is doing because of the work i've done for them.

Interesting side note: the majority of call they get are from people who have seen their vehicle wrap.

So, ask me if I had a successful week last week; i would say yes, busy every day, made several connections with new potential clients and thoroughly enjoyed the week (other than the Bob & Boopsie scenario).

I have a feeling if I asked you if you had a successful week, you would asses the time you work and if know if you were adequately paid for the time you spent and you would know if you had a successful week.

I know my strengthens and my weakness, tell my husband on a regular basis that I'm not cut out to handle the financial end... but I have done nothing to resolve it.

Wanna come run my office Jon?

oh, and the email.... already sent it last night. not looking forward to the reply.

 

[GypsyGraphics]

[FONT=Geneva, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial][/FONT] Shoot me! Just F'n shoot me now!!!! WTH kind of response is this????


Gigi: With all due respect, you are totally misreading this and it's not the first time. None of my comments were aimed at you or meant to offend you or blaming you. I was explaining how important it has been to use the stuff you created for Boopsie and that costs to print were too exorbitant for her to proceed. I am now concerned that in this reply I may somehow write the wrong thing when all I am thinking about are positive things. Being honest about costs, economy, etc is not your fault. But, you are expensive Gigi. That is not an attack, it is reality.I am sorry email correspondence can be so offensive. That is not the intent.
Bob

Yes Bob, you’ve managed to say the wrong thing AGAIN. The appropriate response to me offer for more free work was.. yes, thank you.

Un-friggn-believable!

I have a feeling many of you saw this coming.

I’m not sure this even warrants a response.

 

[bigwebman]

Gigi, I don't think it does warrant a response. If you have given them the files, I would now be done with them. Don't get into a pi$$ing match with him. I think I would ignore e-mails, if he wants to talk, make him call you. Jon may have a better way to handle it, though. These people sure have been a PITA!

 

[astro8]

Gigi, when it comes to 'financials' you are just going to have to behave like a ruthless robot and you will be far better off for it.

Your clients will respect you even more for it and not stuff you around.

You'll come off appearing even more professional when you adopt this approach.