Corel Vs. Adobe....

[bob]

...I paid for my four year art school degree and my software in part to be a truly legit graphic designer and illustrator. Those amateurs didn't pay for anything...

Are they amateurs because they haven't paid or haven't they paid because they are amateurs?

 

[Bobby H]

Both.

Anyone who is truly dedicated to creating professional quality graphic design, illustration, etc. is going to be willing to invest his own money to obtain the tools and knowledge of how to do the work well.

The vast majority of people who are self taught at doing graphics and using illegally obtained software to do the work generate work that flat out sucks. They think they know what they're doing, but they really don't.

While more than a few of us in this forum take pride in the work we do and our principals of doing quality work, the sign industry overall has no shortage of hacks who really have no business being turned loose with a copy of CorelDRAW or Adobe Illustrator. I can drive through any big city here in Oklahoma and see lots of terrible looking signs. And it's easy to tell whoever did the work didn't care at all about how it was going to look when finished and how it was going to visually pollute the commercial landscape. It's just a pay check. The proliferation of warez has aided the decline of graphic design in America. Do it yourself design has taken over in a lot of businesses, made even easier with warez. Depending on the market some businesses may even be justified in going the DIY route in design. If the sign companies in that neighborhood can't or won't do quality work then what's it going to hurt for the business owner to get the design work done on his own?

 

[Techman]

The proliferation of warez has aided the decline of graphic design in America.

I do not agree at all. There were "desktop publishers trying their hand at graphics work long before the internet and warez came along.

 

[2NinerNiner2]

...There were "desktop publishers trying their hand at graphics work...

Curse you, Apple, and your $10K LaserWriter and Aldus, with your 600.00 PageMaker!

 

[royster13]

Curse you Microsoft......

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2001/oct01/10-15publisher.mspx

 

[2NinerNiner2]

Curse you Microsoft......

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2001/oct01/10-15publisher.mspx

... from the above-linked Oct 2001 press release:

"Microsoft Publisher, which turns 10 this fall, is a desktop publishing program that brings to the masses the ability to create slick business collateral, calendars, flyers, postcards, Web sites and more, without the expense and effort necessary to obtain and learn programs created for professional designers."

FINALLY! I now have a hip reply for people who inquire what it is, exactly, that I do. Why, I create slick business collateral, don't ya know there Margie.

​

 

[Bobby H]

I do not agree at all. There were "desktop publishers trying their hand at graphics work long before the internet and warez came along.

The so-called desktop publishing revolution of the mid 1980's allowed a lot of businesses to dumb down their design departments. "Hey, since the computer is doing all the design work now we can let the secretary lay out the brochure instead of paying someone with a graphics degree!"

Mid 1980's desktop publishing hardware and software was not affordable to casual users. Early versions of Aldus PageMaker had a list price of $795. A good Mac and Apple LaserWriter would set you back at least several grand. All this is in 1980's dollars. One would have had to be really serious about doing graphics work to make that sort of investment in hardware and software.

The Internet and web graphics allowed far more amateurs to enter the field. Today anyone, regardless of talent level, can just wake up one morning and say, "I'm gonna be a graphic designer" and hit the ground running with very minimal investment. Prices of computer hardware, particularly laser printers, fell to far more affordable levels in the early 1990s. Today prices are more affordable than ever before. A cheap entry level desktop PC can handle most Photoshop tasks.

Lots of affordable graphics software has been marketed to home DIY users over the years. Despite that, I've lost track of how many non-designers I've seen with full versions of pro-level Adobe software running on their computers. About a year ago one of my friends was telling me about the amazing price she paid for a student version of Adobe Master Collection for her son to use. Just $100. I told her she paid for a cracked, illegal copy.

I tell lots of non-designers about the various open source graphics applications that are available when they talk of wanting to design a company logo or something. Despite the availability of Inkscape, The Gimp, Blender and others quite a few amateurs prefer getting cracked copies of Adobe software despite the legal risks and risks of getting one's computer infected with malware.

 

[bob]

I asked...

Are they amateurs because they haven't paid or haven't they paid because they are amateurs?

To which you dropped your keyboard into gear and replied...

Both.

So then, if someone were to pay then that would elevate them from amateur status?

Then you prattled on, confirming both your arrogance and your ignorance...

Anyone who is truly dedicated to creating professional quality graphic design, illustration, etc. is going to be willing to invest his own money to obtain the tools and knowledge of how to do the work well.

The vast majority of people who are self taught at doing graphics and using illegally obtained software to do the work generate work that flat out sucks. They think they know what they're doing, but they really don't.

...more of the same elitist drivel mercifully deleted...

You ramble on stating as true things not in evidence. You might want to actually venture forth into the external reality and become passingly familiar with How Things Are rather than making proclamations indicating how you wish things were. You might look less the fool.

There is no evidence that the rate of incompetence is not pretty much the same among the proper equipped and formally educated as those making do with native ability and what ever artifacts they might have available to them. Conversely there are at least as many competent operators in the latter group as in the former.

You keep stressing tools and education. This would make you suspect as being one of the incompetents you rail against. Unlike other fields of endeavor, those requiring at least a modicum of creativity require some innate ability with which to begin.

Either you can do this work or you can't. And if you can't do it, all of the really cool tools and formal education extant will not change that. Likewise, if you can do it, then those same tools and formal education might sharpen your abilities, but you can do journeyman work without them.

 

[RobbyMac]

When I started at this shop in 1993, they would run a pen plot onto paper (out of Anagraph/Designart). They would then color in the design using marker. When The customer came in and said "That looks great, but can I see what it would look like in blue instead of red?" It would then require another pen plot (if that plotter didn't have a paying job cutting at that moment), and another round of coloring (More labor).

While tools don't make the designer any better, I for one am sure glad we switched to the design software (coreldraw) tool. Could we have done it by hand? or continued doing pen plots? sure. But one click of a button showed the customer their request in an instant.

We found a tool to make our rough comps/design process go a hell of a lot faster, meaning more profit and efficiency and/or less time from work. No one could convince me to go back to doing it on pen and paper just to prove that 'it can be done'. Whether it's corel, adobe, or whatever... I use whatever saves me time, and expedites my design process period. That tool for me happens to be coreldraw.

 

[signmeup]

bob's right... as usual.

The notion that one cannot learn a trade like graphic design unless one attends university is absurd. Do you think Da Vinci had a degree in graphic design?

Also, "Tools do not a craftsman make." Furthermore, those who tell you the loudest how much they know, usually don't know nearly as much as they think.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Likewise, if you can do it, then those same tools and formal education might sharpen your abilities, but you can do journeyman work without them.

That, like so many things in life, depends. There is only so much that even a skilled person can do with an inferior tool. I'm not saying it's impossible, but if quick and efficient while knocking out quality makes it harder to use some inferior tools. Can it be done? Well again that depends on the situation, sometimes it can, sometimes it can't.

Make no mistake about it, I can do things from scratch without the time saving capabilities of the more expensive programs, but I would not be as quick and by extension as profitable without them. Like I said, I get paid the same if it takes me 5 minutes versus 5 hours and that's just how the majority of this industry charges. Just too many quick options for people to chose from, I would lose business as well. Ironically, the ROI on the more expensive program that I use(which you can buy several Master Collection Suites for the same price) is much quicker then the cheap or even free programs(due to the fact that a 5 dollar design would take 2 hours, that's $2.5 per hour, pitiful hourly wage wouldn't you think?) available out there and I do know what I'm doing bob, so don't think this is a cry from the incompetent digitizer.

Of course, there are some things that the inferior tools just can't do flat out, like compensate for different fabrics that the design is going to go on and there is nothing in the program to change that.

While having the top shelf programs doesn't in of itself mean that you know what you are doing, there is only so much that even a talented person can do with "inferior" tools. There is more to this then just getting the job done, there is getting the job done in a timely manner that you can still derive profit from.

I think you are a little too hung up on just the mere fact of getting to Point A to Point B. Sometimes that's fine, but not in all cases. Clients want Point A to Point B to also be as quick as possible and that may not be the case depending on what is in your "toolbox".

 

[signmeup]

bob... I see from your signature that you've seen "It's a Wonderful Life" enough times already.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

bob's right... as usual.

The notion that one cannot learn a trade like graphic design unless one attends university is absurd. Do you think Da Vinci had a degree in graphic design?

Also, "Tools do not a craftsman make." Furthermore, those who tell you the loudest how much they know, usually don't know nearly as much as they think.

In part yes.

The horse industry is another example like graphic design and I'm involved in both, although I have formal education in the equine industry. I agree with him there.

I also agree with him in that having the best tools make you any better of a designer, digitizer or whatever you are. They are only as good as the person using them.

What I do disagree with him is the believe that the work can be done no matter what the tool set that the person has. That may or may not be the case, it depends on the situation. Sometimes those features of the more expensive programs are needed in order to remain profitable and competive in the current market. It doesn't mean that you are any less of the designer, it just means that the work that you are trying to get done requires a certain tool set and you need tools that get your work out there quicker. Customers of today want quick and convenient and that would dictate a certain tool set.

 

[signmeup]

"design" is not something that comes out of a computer. It comes from the designers mind. The computer gives us a way of conveying our vision to our audience just like a brush or pencil or "gorilla snot on a window" does.

 

[signmeup]

I like Corel BTW. Illustrator is too hard to figure out for me. I've tried but I just don't get it. (I'm probably not smart enough)

 

[J Hill Designs]

I like Corel BTW. Illustrator is too hard to figure out for me. I've tried but I just don't get it. (I'm probably not smart enough)

exactly the reason i rarely use illustrator except to open pesky files to aide bringing them into corel

 

[WildWestDesigns]

"design" is not something that comes out of a computer. It comes from the designers mind.

I'm not arguing that part.

The computer gives us a way of conveying our vision to our audience just like a brush or pencil or "gorilla snot on a window" does.

Yes and each one has their pros and cons as a tool set. It depends on your particular situation that determines what particular tool set that you can use and keep going. Each one has their place and knowing that place well help you determine what you need to to use or not use.

There is no blanket one size fits all tool set. How skilled the user is determines how much use they can squeeze out of each tool set, but there is only so much one can squeeze out of each set no matter how good the user is.

 

[signmeup]

exactly the reason i rarely use illustrator except to open pesky files to aide bringing them into corel

Thanks. I feel better now. We should start a support group...

 

[signmeup]

Wildwest... if the "designers vision" sucks there is no tool or medium that will make it "unsuck".

 

[royster13]

After dumping Corel Draw at Version 8.0 because I hated it and it crashed too often I became a fan of Adobe.....I have the design standard suite and can not imagine life without it.....

And I saw this is a new TradeNet Publishing catalogue yesterday....

"*PLEASE NOTE: Factory ASSUMES NO RESPONSIBILITY for incorrect color or special effects output from Corel generated files. Color shifting may occur on full color (four color process) items. DO NOT format submitted art as Illustrator from Corel Draw."