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Discussion Do I have to wait 24hrs so I can laminate?
- Thread starter mcngrafix
- Start date
Decal Dennis
New Member
I have that machine....if you are using solvent ink, then yes, wait 24 hours. If using Mimaki eco solvent ink, as I do in mine, you can laminate right away with no issues.
bob
It's better to have two hands than one glove.
And what, captain chemistry, would be the difference? The evaporative processes for eco-solvent inks differ from those of solvent inks in what way that would make such a dramatic difference?
Decal Dennis
New Member
I'm not good with chemistry, almost burned the house down when I was a teenager!! Simple non scientific explanation.......Just years of experience with the 2 different inks, BAM....get ya sum of that!!
DerbyCitySignGuy
New Member
Different manufacturers recommend different things. To be on the safe side, I'd give yourself 24 hours if you don't have time to look up the recommended outgassing time.
I know you're supposed to be able to use prints done with Roland Eco-Sol MAX instantly, but never used it.
I've seen channeling and bubbling one time from a print that wasn't given time to outgas.
I know you're supposed to be able to use prints done with Roland Eco-Sol MAX instantly, but never used it.
I've seen channeling and bubbling one time from a print that wasn't given time to outgas.
Johnny Best
Active Member
From the desk of Captain Chemistry: "Here is the key to understanding why it is so important to dry the inks prior to lamination: These same solvents are also very compatible with your films and adhesives and will change their characteristics, usually in a negative way. Adhesives become soft and gummy, usually seen as much more aggressive but with not much strength. The films become stretchy and soft and hard to handle. Once the solvents have evaporated, the films and adhesives generally return to their originally designed form."
I don't think we've ever had a problem with immediately laminating Roland Eco-Sol Max inks. Been doing it for 10+ years. We do wait "a while" on some things, when vinyl shrinkage could cause a problem.
Johnny Best
Active Member
Also the OP wanted to know if there was a faster way to "outgass" the prints. Someone on here years ago devised a fan under a milk carton and inclosed it leaving the top exposed so the air passed over the prints inside causing them to dry faster.
My printroom is in a controlled temp of 75 degrees with no humidity year around and prints dry completely in about 1-2 hours with no problem with lamination. If it is heavy ink coverage a little bit longer drying as others have said.
If you print a sample and after it comes off the printer, peel back the vinyl and you will witness the flex of the ink on the vinyl. Try it at different times to see when the evaporation of the inks has finished in your environment.
My printroom is in a controlled temp of 75 degrees with no humidity year around and prints dry completely in about 1-2 hours with no problem with lamination. If it is heavy ink coverage a little bit longer drying as others have said.
If you print a sample and after it comes off the printer, peel back the vinyl and you will witness the flex of the ink on the vinyl. Try it at different times to see when the evaporation of the inks has finished in your environment.
The ink reacts and causes almost like a bubble/effect on the edges of the ink
bob
It's better to have two hands than one glove.
Two very different phenomena. One is evaporation the other is a chemical reaction, sort of. Evaporation takes minutes. The reaction between the vinyl and the ink where the vinyl is softened can take a much longer time to settle down. The thing commonly refereed to as 'out gassing' is the evaporation of the solvents which is over in a few minutes. The ink is indeed dry. However the reaction with the vinyl is ongoing. Whether or not the reaction taking place in the printed vinyl can have some effect on a laminate might be some sort of issue but whatever that it might be, it's not 'out gassing'.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Why worry about what the manufacturers say about their own products..... whadda they know ??
If ya hafta do it right away, do it. If you can wait, wait.
Years ago, when ink wasn't even a sign medium, other than a magic marker, most things were done with paint of some sorts. Paints dried to the touch.... some in minutes, while others took hours. However, if you scratched at the paint, you usually would find a goo still there. Once the paint formed a protective dry skin, it was considered dry, but not cured. Curing again, could take 3 up to 6 months. What happens is the solvents in the paint, both oil and latex based, still continue to evaporate through the dried skin of paint on the top through mostly air passing by it. Once this process is completed it is considered fully dried and hard. That process was called outgassing in later years, cause it sounded better then curing. Modern day ink people just adopted the term and use it for their excuse of inks sometimes getting messed up, by end-users. Hogwash. These inks are so minutely thin, they don't outgas. They are changing the molecular structure and components and forming a new one and this process can take a few minutes to an hour or two. Anything further is total nonsense.
Use cheap vinyl, mix in your cheap 3rd party inks and throw a laminate on top, so nothing can happen....... and ya got yourself a real clusterf*ck of a job.
Here ya go. Ya jump in the pool, get all good and wet. Step out, air-dry for a few minutes and no water is visible on your skin. However, your pores and hair are still holding lotsa moisture. Are you dry or are you outgassing ?? Put on a latex body wrap and see if you thoroughly dry. What's that....?? Your body will absorb the excess moisture ?? So, leave a hisser and ya have real out-gassing.
If ya hafta do it right away, do it. If you can wait, wait.
Years ago, when ink wasn't even a sign medium, other than a magic marker, most things were done with paint of some sorts. Paints dried to the touch.... some in minutes, while others took hours. However, if you scratched at the paint, you usually would find a goo still there. Once the paint formed a protective dry skin, it was considered dry, but not cured. Curing again, could take 3 up to 6 months. What happens is the solvents in the paint, both oil and latex based, still continue to evaporate through the dried skin of paint on the top through mostly air passing by it. Once this process is completed it is considered fully dried and hard. That process was called outgassing in later years, cause it sounded better then curing. Modern day ink people just adopted the term and use it for their excuse of inks sometimes getting messed up, by end-users. Hogwash. These inks are so minutely thin, they don't outgas. They are changing the molecular structure and components and forming a new one and this process can take a few minutes to an hour or two. Anything further is total nonsense.
Use cheap vinyl, mix in your cheap 3rd party inks and throw a laminate on top, so nothing can happen....... and ya got yourself a real clusterf*ck of a job.
Here ya go. Ya jump in the pool, get all good and wet. Step out, air-dry for a few minutes and no water is visible on your skin. However, your pores and hair are still holding lotsa moisture. Are you dry or are you outgassing ?? Put on a latex body wrap and see if you thoroughly dry. What's that....?? Your body will absorb the excess moisture ?? So, leave a hisser and ya have real out-gassing.
You don't HAVE to... But should you? Yes...
Every ink, every material, every shop is different... Theres different temps, different amounts of solvent in the ink, etc. So there is no magic number.
Ink is comprised of pigment, and "solvent", like rubbing alcohol. It takes more than minutes for the solvent to evaporate... It takes more than hours for all the solvent to evaporate. If you laminate it right away, All that solvent gets trapped, and wont evaporate.
Does that mean it's going to cause you issues? That all depends. We've laminated something 10 minutes after with no issues. We've also laminated something hours after, and had every single sign fail. Theres too many variables to tell you what you should do, and how long you should wait. We try to let it offgas overnight... But of course rush jobs happen, and we end up laminating it within an hour of the print. 90% of the time it's ok, but why risk it if you don't have to?
If you have time, let it offgas... If you don't, then don't. Just be prepared for the chance of a redo. It's not as big of a deal as some people make it out to be, but why cut corners unless you 100% have to? Design your workflow around offgassing, and you should be able to offgas 99% of the time.
For faster offgassing... if you can weld, you can easily make a "prop" to help. All you need to do is blow a fan under, or ontop of the roll. You could theoretically even loosen the vinyl so it's not tight on the roll, have the roll standing up with the plastic core holder, and hang a fan overtop of it.
But even then... Whats the magic number? an hour, 2, 12? It's best to let it sit at least overnight.
Every ink, every material, every shop is different... Theres different temps, different amounts of solvent in the ink, etc. So there is no magic number.
Ink is comprised of pigment, and "solvent", like rubbing alcohol. It takes more than minutes for the solvent to evaporate... It takes more than hours for all the solvent to evaporate. If you laminate it right away, All that solvent gets trapped, and wont evaporate.
Does that mean it's going to cause you issues? That all depends. We've laminated something 10 minutes after with no issues. We've also laminated something hours after, and had every single sign fail. Theres too many variables to tell you what you should do, and how long you should wait. We try to let it offgas overnight... But of course rush jobs happen, and we end up laminating it within an hour of the print. 90% of the time it's ok, but why risk it if you don't have to?
If you have time, let it offgas... If you don't, then don't. Just be prepared for the chance of a redo. It's not as big of a deal as some people make it out to be, but why cut corners unless you 100% have to? Design your workflow around offgassing, and you should be able to offgas 99% of the time.
For faster offgassing... if you can weld, you can easily make a "prop" to help. All you need to do is blow a fan under, or ontop of the roll. You could theoretically even loosen the vinyl so it's not tight on the roll, have the roll standing up with the plastic core holder, and hang a fan overtop of it.
But even then... Whats the magic number? an hour, 2, 12? It's best to let it sit at least overnight.
bob
It's better to have two hands than one glove.
Not what actually happens. The drying of volatile solvents cannot be compared to the curing of enamels. The former dries via evaporation which happens immediately. The latter cures by chemical processes which can take months if not years. It can be argued that once enamel is fully cured it starts to oxidize and is considered at the end of its life.
DerbyCitySignGuy
New Member
bob
It's better to have two hands than one glove.
In the words of my old philosophy mentor "Don't be an a$$". Immediately does not mean instantaneously.
equippaint
Active Member
Solvents have to get flashed out of the paint before it skins or you get solvent pop, so solvents do escape very quickly. This is why you have to wait between coats on any catalyzed paint or you risk burying the solvent.
For people debating the term outgassing: Solvents evaporating is drying, curing is the chemical polymerization of the paint, therefore outgassing is simply drying. IMO, saying you have to wait for the ink to dry sounds a lot less douchey than saying im waiting for it to outgas when talking to customers.