Finding the copyright owner... Feeling lost

[Trip59]

I had a client ask for a graphic to be incorporated into a design, a reverse search through Tineye came up with 450 matches all over the place. None that I looked at out of several dozen, appeared to be the artist nor anyone with legitimate ability to license. Any tips on how to go about beyond the obvious "use a different graphic". In the past I have commissioned new artwork with the same feel, though this one won't really work out that way (plus my artist just moved halfway across the state). There is the possibility of searching out something else that will work from a reputable site, but I know this is going to come up again, with this client as well as others, "I found it on Google" seems to rarely yield an easy way to secure licensing/permissions.

Trip

 

[WCSign]

A lot of people on here are not going to like this, but if a client brings me a useable image and I search for it on google and I cannot find the original author or find it on one of the stock photos sites for sale... then im going to use it regardless.

If I find it for sale, I will buy it and make the customer pay and let them know its purchased. If not, then ill tell them the down sides and possibilities.


Lets be honest, if someone is in the business of making graphics that get spread all over the internet without a watermark or a place to purchase them... Then they should rethink their business strategy

 

[Gino]

Well, two wrongs don't make a right. Not saying I disagree with you, but the law is the law after all.

If everyone used your method of thinking, there'd be no need for this site at all. Just do as you please and to H*ll with anyone else.

We/you are doing the duplicating. It is then basically our/your responsibility to make sure you are not doing something wrong or illegal. A simple quick check see is not what someone is gonna say will hold up in your defense, should someone come out of the woodwork. Well, ya see your honor... I did a two minute google and didn't see/find anything, so I figured it was Okay, even though I knew better.

 

[Trip59]

Well, two wrongs don't make a right. Not saying I disagree with you, but the law is the law after all.

If everyone used your method of thinking, there'd be no need for this site at all. Just do as you please and to H*ll with anyone else.

We/you are doing the duplicating. It is then basically our/your responsibility to make sure you are not doing something wrong or illegal. A simple quick check see is not what someone is gonna say will hold up in your defense, should someone come out of the woodwork. Well, ya see your honor... I did a two minute google and didn't see/find anything, so I figured it was Okay, even though I knew better.

Yup, my thoughts, that's why I'm hoping someone here has some advice on a way to track it down, I know I can't be the first person to run into this and the posts I've seen similar all mention reverse image searching, which yielded a huge number of random results.

I will add that with so many results coming up, I wouldn't use it if it were my choice, and that may make it easier to talk him out of it, but I can tell from the conversations he'd really, really like to use it and the happier he is, the more work I'll get. Might be a whole different story if I didn't know the volume this guy moves.

 

[WCSign]

if someone cant take the time to properly sell their image, then I'd take the bet all day long that they wouldn't start a lawsuit over a logo they will never ever see on some mom and pop businesses van in a town they have never been in.

but in the offhanded chance they do, ill let you all know.

People who sell bootleg crap on ebay go for awhile never getting caught and when they do, all they get is a simple cease and desist email from lawyers.


On a related subject... someone comes to you for a banner, they give you a vivid description and you give them a price and get the job. You take the money and make the design, they like it except they want a certain font. Low and behold they have a printout of a banner and you see the font on it. Your banner and the printout are now eerily similar.

a few weeks later another sign shop is calling you a scab because you copied their design that they sent the client without a deposit.

Who is right and who is wrong?

 

[WCSign]

And just to add, I send clients to deposit photos all the time to find something they need... obviously this is my preferred method with these clients because they wont pay for something super custom, I have a membership there and I know ill get the vector file. So I do try to exhaust all avenues to get money into an artists pockets.

 

[Gino]

if someone cant take the time to properly sell their image, then I'd take the bet all day long that they wouldn't start a lawsuit over a logo they will never ever see on some mom and pop businesses van in a town they have never been in.

but in the offhanded chance they do, ill let you all know.

People who sell bootleg crap on ebay go for awhile never getting caught and when they do, all they get is a simple cease and desist email from lawyers.


On a related subject... someone comes to you for a banner, they give you a vivid description and you give them a price and get the job. You take the money and make the design, they like it except they want a certain font. Low and behold they have a printout of a banner and you see the font on it. Your banner and the printout are now eerily similar.

a few weeks later another sign shop is calling you a scab because you copied their design that they sent the client without a deposit.

Who is right and who is wrong?

That's an easy one.......

I can prove my stuff was done before getting the picture from the client, based on the date that will show up in my file detail box. If the fonts are similar, well, that's because the client requested it. You had no idea someone else drew up a proposal for free and handed it off with no stipulations.

I highly doubt two banners are gonna look alike, unless it says :

AVAILABLE
098-123-7654
​

 

[signed off]

not an expert in the subject

But, many years ago I created/owned a company that was a child's colouring product (4' x 8' colouring wall mural with 2 sided tape and crayons) with the licencing rights to Warner Bros., Mattel, Disney, etc. I needed a few colour brochures printed in a hurry on my way to a meeting and stopped in to a printer ( who is no longer in business) and gave them my artwork to run a few copies. When the girl looked at it she said "Hey we print these ( the product) for our boss" I replied what do you mean and she says when ever there is a birthday party or he has a family get together we do some up for him. Turns out he saw my brochure somewhere and just reproduced the art off of it and she showed me the plates/negatives. So I put them in my bag and she said "Hey you can't take them" and I said handing her by business card "oh yes I can, by the way let your boss know he will be hearing from my lawyers". To make a long story short if you know it is not yours and you know it is copy righted or protected. Don't use it. Even the 10% doesn't hold up in most cases. If the client can't supply me with the rights to an image, than we don't use it. I like to sleep at night.
just my 2 cents

 

[Trip59]

I'm not trying to debate whether or not it CAN be done, I will maintain my integrity and not try to skate by, yes, I've lost business because of that. This is not the point of my question.

My question was/is Does anyone have a better method than just a reverse image search to locate the original artist or copyright holder. Is there a more accurate service, a better service, etc. than just Tineye or other free reverse image searches. It's out there, it's most likely copyrighted and just because others are using it, doesn't mean I would be ok with it. No, if all my friends jumped off a bridge I wouldn't too, though I'd probably sit there and laugh at them.

Again, not trying to debate the ethics of it, trying to find a good method or process to maintain my own integrity and still get the client what they want.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Have you also tried Google image search? They might turn up something different. You might also benefit from posting the image here.

 

[WCSign]

But, many years ago I created/owned a company that was a child's colouring product (4' x 8' colouring wall mural with 2 sided tape and crayons) with the licencing rights to Warner Bros., Mattel, Disney, etc. I needed a few colour brochures printed in a hurry on my way to a meeting and stopped in to a printer ( who is no longer in business) and gave them my artwork to run a few copies. When the girl looked at it she said "Hey we print these ( the product) for our boss" I replied what do you mean and she says when ever there is a birthday party or he has a family get together we do some up for him. Turns out he saw my brochure somewhere and just reproduced the art off of it and she showed me the plates/negatives. So I put them in my bag and she said "Hey you can't take them" and I said handing her by business card "oh yes I can, by the way let your boss know he will be hearing from my lawyers". To make a long story short if you know it is not yours and you know it is copy righted or protected. Don't use it. Even the 10% doesn't hold up in most cases. If the client can't supply me with the rights to an image, than we don't use it. I like to sleep at night.
just my 2 cents

But did you randomly have your useable artwork on the internet for him to download and have no way of discovering who owns it?

 

[Jillbeans]

I'd just draw something myself in a similar style.
Love....Jill

 

[Marlene]

A lot of people on here are not going to like this, but if a client brings me a useable image and I search for it on google and I cannot find the original author or find it on one of the stock photos sites for sale... then im going to use it regardless.

and we have the reason why this is an issue. it also is what makes a professional different from the non-professional

 

[Biker Scout]

If you aren't paying for the art or creating it yourself, you are doing it wrong.

 

[JgS]

Can you post the image? Maybe one of us can find it or at least let you know if you should find a designer to make something for you.

 

[jfiscus]

yeah, why didn't you go ahead and post the image here?

 

[signed off]

But did you randomly have your useable artwork on the internet for him to download and have no way of discovering who owns it?

No art work was all hand drawn the old fashion way (talking 20 years ago) when they made plates and negatives. I filed for a copy right/trade mark on the "idea" as the characters are all licensed by the big guys. I only found out when I went to a lawyer on a different matter that my copy right that I had filed was under my own personal name and it is protected until 15 years after I die. I guess I checked a lot of boxes on the form I filed.
I don't believe there is going to be an easy way to locate the art in question as it could have been copy righted, trade mark, licensed for use by ??? There are so many ways, not to mention was it protected under a personal name or a business name. I would personally say to the client "you" spend the time to get the rights to use the character/symbol as time is money and unless I told the client that I would spend 2hrs max at $$$ an hour ( shop rate) with no guarantees to locate the rights, I would not use it. But for $$$$ I will recreate something for you.
Sorry but I don't think there is an easy way to locate the info you need

 

[WCSign]

So its ok to recreate something.. I can recreate stuff all day long, who makes the rules on how different it has to be?

Let me ask you all this, did you pay for every single font on your computer?

im all for creating things or paying artists.. I do it more often than not, but if an artist is so concerned with making money off thier image by some random person who wants a special decal printed of it to go on thier car, then they should make sure that the sign guy can find them and pay them easily enough.


If you want people to walk in your door, then you make sure they know where to find you right?

just to be clear, im not talking about bootlegging calvin and hobbes stickers at the flea market either. Im talking about hypothetical random one off stuff.

Here is an instance.. A friend of mines husband is a cop, she sent me a google image of the 1* sheriff star badge to do some decals. I cleaned it up/ recreated it exactly and printed a stack of decalsfor her.. So im a bad guy and someone should come sue me??

 

[WCSign]

But did you randomly have your useable artwork on the internet for him to download and have no way of discovering who owns it?

No art work was all hand drawn the old fashion way (talking 20 years ago) when they made plates and negatives. I filed for a copy right/trade mark on the "idea" as the characters are all licensed by the big guys. I only found out when I went to a lawyer on a different matter that my copy right that I had filed was under my own personal name and it is protected until 15 years after I die. I guess I checked a lot of boxes on the form I filed.
I don't believe there is going to be an easy way to locate the art in question as it could have been copy righted, trade mark, licensed for use by ??? There are so many ways, not to mention was it protected under a personal name or a business name. I would personally say to the client "you" spend the time to get the rights to use the character/symbol as time is money and unless I told the client that I would spend 2hrs max at $$$ an hour ( shop rate) with no guarantees to locate the rights, I would not use it. But for $$$$ I will recreate something for you.
Sorry but I don't think there is an easy way to locate the info you need

so how did he get your artwork?

 

[Billct2]

I do it more often than not, but if an artist is so concerned with making money off thier image by some random person who wants a special decal printed of it to go on thier car, then they should make sure that the sign guy can find them and pay them easily enough.

You do realize that not every design was created to sell, a lot of design is for a specific "one time" use.