Johnny Best
Active Member
Where DerbyCitySignGuy outgassing comes from.
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laminate failure photos?
- Thread starter Marlene
- Start date
DerbyCitySignGuy
New Member
Do you ever have anything constructive to post or are you just a troll with bad artwork?
DerbyCitySignGuy
New Member
Johnny Best
Active Member
My constructive post would be agreeing with bob on this "outgassing" thing that has been discussed many times over on here.
The OP was asking for photos, not some scientific fact finding tour you were taking us on. And then your PeeWee comment on me being a troll and bad artwork even takes it to another level. It was just my view of how you sarcastically came back with the 3M science remark. Now your an art critic and a conspiracy theorist.
But hey, keep on talking out of your a$$ about things, and I will keep on being a "troll".
The OP was asking for photos, not some scientific fact finding tour you were taking us on. And then your PeeWee comment on me being a troll and bad artwork even takes it to another level. It was just my view of how you sarcastically came back with the 3M science remark. Now your an art critic and a conspiracy theorist.
But hey, keep on talking out of your a$$ about things, and I will keep on being a "troll".
bob
It's better to have two hands than one glove.
It's empirical evidence [see Aristotle] as well as rational [see Copernicus] not anecdotal [see Facebook]. Learn the differences.
Conspiracy? The great printed vinyl conspiracy? Seek help.
DerbyCitySignGuy
New Member
Bob, you do whatever you want. Clearly your opinion is far more valid than the advice of the material and equipment manufacturers.
[Edit: For the record, anecdotal is appropriate. Your statements are based entirely on your own personal observations. Unless you've been doing some scientific studies and have some hard data to back up your opinions?]
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DerbyCitySignGuy
New Member
You're not funny and this isn't a forum for comedians, so that makes you a troll. You aren't offering up anything useful or helpful. I might not like Bob or agree with everything he says, but at least he offers up helpful advice, even if it is condescending 75% of the time.
Keep playing that victim card though, snowflake.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
So, after going back and reading all of your silly posts in this thread, let's see, you've managed to make many bold statements and not a single one has any evidence or knowledge, let alone common sense to back them up.
Not to mention, if your roll of laminate was contaminated, why don't you have more pictures of burned out prints ??
So, let's examine your troubles here.... whadyasay ?? Forget the OP's request, let's figure out your problems.
Why is it, the white portions are what burned.... and so badly ?? The ink, actually has stood the test and is still showing through the burned areas. If the UV is to protect the ink, why has the ink remained, but the white which doesn't need it whatsoever has turned a different color ?? Me thinkst your story is based upon bullsh!t and the manufacturer just told you, you had a bad roll, just to shut you up and have a little p!ssant go away.
So, you're telling this crowd that the manufacturer told you this based upon that picture and didn't reimburse you a cent or ask to see other signs from the same roll of laminate ?? Again, bullsh!t.
You've become an expert on outgassing because someone told you and now you're repeating it third party and not word for word, but just what you remember..... more bullsh!t.
Do you ever post anything with truth related information or are you just a troll with bad signs ??
As for the equipment manufacturers or the techs so-to-be..... they tell you what you wanna hear..... nothing more, nothing less. It's never their fault. It's always end-user errors.
While Johnny Best might not be funny, you certainly are with all of your pumped up chest beating bullsh!t.
Keep playing with that idiot card you have, cause it's the only excuse you have at this point.
Snowflake...... you don't even have a category you fit in, unless you consider primordial ooze.
Not to mention, if your roll of laminate was contaminated, why don't you have more pictures of burned out prints ??
So, let's examine your troubles here.... whadyasay ?? Forget the OP's request, let's figure out your problems.
Why is it, the white portions are what burned.... and so badly ?? The ink, actually has stood the test and is still showing through the burned areas. If the UV is to protect the ink, why has the ink remained, but the white which doesn't need it whatsoever has turned a different color ?? Me thinkst your story is based upon bullsh!t and the manufacturer just told you, you had a bad roll, just to shut you up and have a little p!ssant go away.
So, you're telling this crowd that the manufacturer told you this based upon that picture and didn't reimburse you a cent or ask to see other signs from the same roll of laminate ?? Again, bullsh!t.
You've become an expert on outgassing because someone told you and now you're repeating it third party and not word for word, but just what you remember..... more bullsh!t.
Do you ever post anything with truth related information or are you just a troll with bad signs ??
As for the equipment manufacturers or the techs so-to-be..... they tell you what you wanna hear..... nothing more, nothing less. It's never their fault. It's always end-user errors.
While Johnny Best might not be funny, you certainly are with all of your pumped up chest beating bullsh!t.
Keep playing with that idiot card you have, cause it's the only excuse you have at this point.
I've been gone for 10 days and look at the crock-a-sh!t you write. In other threads, you're telling people how they should respond and to what. Who the f*ck died and left you in charge ?? We now have some good admins for that kinda stuff and I haven't seen your name on the ticket. So, why don't you take some friendly advice and shut the f*ck up and stop ruining all these threads here a late ??
Snowflake...... you don't even have a category you fit in, unless you consider primordial ooze.
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Joe Diaz
New Member
I don't know if it's "outgassing" or not. But I have noticed that if we laminate our prints right away and then apply the graphics that same day, the adhesive is quite a bit more aggressive which makes things like re-positioning graphics a bit trickier. So if we were to do anything somewhat wrap related we like to let the print sit longer before we laminate. That being said, we've personally witnessed no discernible difference in the longevity of the graphics or the performance (other than the ease of applying) between graphics we laminate right away or graphics we let sit a day or more before we laminate. Thankfully, we've never witnessed any of our graphics turn brown like the photos some of you have posted. I'm not sure what causes that.
I don't know if what I'm talking about is the results of outgassing or something else. I frankly don't care what you call it. I just know what does and doesn't work for us. Obviously it's good to be aware of how your materials react to different factors and how they hold up. We all use different combinations of equipment and materials. Keeping that in mind, I wonder if fighting with others about this is necessary. Could it be we are experiencing different results because of the equipment, materials and environment that all play a role? I mean as long as we have all figured out what works for each of us, does it really matter?
I don't know if what I'm talking about is the results of outgassing or something else. I frankly don't care what you call it. I just know what does and doesn't work for us. Obviously it's good to be aware of how your materials react to different factors and how they hold up. We all use different combinations of equipment and materials. Keeping that in mind, I wonder if fighting with others about this is necessary. Could it be we are experiencing different results because of the equipment, materials and environment that all play a role? I mean as long as we have all figured out what works for each of us, does it really matter?
printhog
New Member
The browning is called "sunburn" and is caused by both UV exposure and acidic rain eating the vinyl surface. Sunburn occurs when acid rains or caustic cleaners etch the vinyl surface and destroy the UV protective properties. I knew a mechanic who wiped a wrap's fenders with a shop cleaner and didnt rinse it off. Weeks later it was sunburned and browning right where the cleaner was applied. Degreasers and strong bases and acids are notorious for this, but over time acid rain is the big culprit.
Rapid blackening is a non UV protective vinyl. Cheaper laminates have minimal UV protection in the vinyl, that's pricey. They rely on a cheaper UV blocker in the adhesive itself instead of the vinyl, very counterproductive.
Here's some FACTS on the drying time and outgassing..
First the drytime.. MacTac ran a test of eco solvent drytime..it's 24-30 hours.. even has a nice chart for those too lazy to read.. sadly many newer sign shops have never painted an item professionally, so they have no idea about this kind of thing.. they apply the "it feels dry to the touch" concept of instant gratification.
Drying Time for Solvent and Eco-Solvent Prints
Now for outgassing- you wouldnt put plastic wrap over fresh paint and expect the paint to dry...(okay maybe some would)... and just like plastic wrap over fresh paint, the laminate seals the print from drying, and traps the remaining solvent in the ink layer under the laminate.. where it can only leach out, both to the laminate and to the adhesive. Weakening both layers. this attacks the glue of both the vinyl and the lam.
There is another type of outgassing, specific to polycarbonate. Amazingly, polycarb is really keen on absorbing water. It contains lots of water molecules from its manufacture. When thermoforming it we have to dry the sheets in an oven overnight to get rid of the water, or we get bubbles and defects from steam. Only when the protective sheet is removed can the water vapor can begin to dry out, just like the ink/laminate thing above. If the sheet is from a new fresh roll and the protective liner was just removed shops should allow it to stabilize for 24 hours before decorating. All the polycarb makers state this. Typical outgassing issues with polycarb are tiny bubbles appearing days later under the vinyl, and premature adhesive fails.
Yeah I know what youre going to say "but they say to apply graphics with soapy water".. and yes, thats the right way to apply, but the small amount of water applied in a short time period isnt the issue, its the slow leaching of water from the thick sheet of poly that tries to escape day in and day out. THAT kind of chemical attack weakens the adhesive. Solar exposure produces tiny steam pockets in the adhesive layer.
Rapid blackening is a non UV protective vinyl. Cheaper laminates have minimal UV protection in the vinyl, that's pricey. They rely on a cheaper UV blocker in the adhesive itself instead of the vinyl, very counterproductive.
Here's some FACTS on the drying time and outgassing..
First the drytime.. MacTac ran a test of eco solvent drytime..it's 24-30 hours.. even has a nice chart for those too lazy to read.. sadly many newer sign shops have never painted an item professionally, so they have no idea about this kind of thing.. they apply the "it feels dry to the touch" concept of instant gratification.
Drying Time for Solvent and Eco-Solvent Prints
Now for outgassing- you wouldnt put plastic wrap over fresh paint and expect the paint to dry...(okay maybe some would)... and just like plastic wrap over fresh paint, the laminate seals the print from drying, and traps the remaining solvent in the ink layer under the laminate.. where it can only leach out, both to the laminate and to the adhesive. Weakening both layers. this attacks the glue of both the vinyl and the lam.
There is another type of outgassing, specific to polycarbonate. Amazingly, polycarb is really keen on absorbing water. It contains lots of water molecules from its manufacture. When thermoforming it we have to dry the sheets in an oven overnight to get rid of the water, or we get bubbles and defects from steam. Only when the protective sheet is removed can the water vapor can begin to dry out, just like the ink/laminate thing above. If the sheet is from a new fresh roll and the protective liner was just removed shops should allow it to stabilize for 24 hours before decorating. All the polycarb makers state this. Typical outgassing issues with polycarb are tiny bubbles appearing days later under the vinyl, and premature adhesive fails.
Yeah I know what youre going to say "but they say to apply graphics with soapy water".. and yes, thats the right way to apply, but the small amount of water applied in a short time period isnt the issue, its the slow leaching of water from the thick sheet of poly that tries to escape day in and day out. THAT kind of chemical attack weakens the adhesive. Solar exposure produces tiny steam pockets in the adhesive layer.