Replacing pan face with flat...

[Stacey K]

I have a good customer of mine who wants her pan faces replaced. I originally told her I don't do lifts and I'm not UL certified so she would need to contact XXX instead. She just sent me all the dimensions for "sleeves" I'm like what is a sleeve? She wants me to cut her regular poly in place of the pan faces. I said that's just not something I do, you can call XXX. She keeps arguing me that an electrician is putting new LED wiring in and she's going to install them so nothing can come back on me.

But - that's not the way I see it...am I being difficult?

4 signs at 67"x48"
2 signs at 67"x60"

I think I read from someone one time part of the pan face is what makes it sturdier and if you just put a flat piece in it could fall out. The business is also on a state highway so if there's an issue and she didn't get permits and I have no UL insurance...I'm liable, correct? (I have regular sign business insurance but I'm no electrician)

Thanks!

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Most cases whoever installs it is liable. I'd make those signs and hand it to her. It's not a huge issue doing flat for those size signs, just need to be mindful of hotspots in lighting and make sure you have at least 1.5" retainer. 1" retainers would be too small for flat. Pans are not THAT expensive. You could probably get all 4 signs delivered for $3k and decorate them yourself.

 

[Stacey K]

Most cases whoever installs it is liable. I'd make those signs and hand it to her. It's not a huge issue doing flat for those size signs, just need to be mindful of hotspots in lighting and make sure you have at least 1.5" retainer. 1" retainers would be too small for flat. Pans are not THAT expensive. You could probably get all 4 signs delivered for $3k and decorate them yourself.

What kind of material do I use?

 

[Gino]

Pan face certainly makes it stronger..... MUCH stronger, but pan faces were developed so the old 7-up, coke, pepsi and automotive places could make a cheaper 4" can and to get the faces far enough away from the fluorescent tubes, they went to pan faces to avoid the hot spots. Now, she's putting in LEDs, which are brighter, yet. She is gonna have horrible hot spots. Also, if the signs were designed for pan faces, she should stay with pan faces.

That's like saying I have a tesla, but I can't afford a new engine. I'm gonna put a VW motor in it. It'll work, cause I can't do it the right way.

You're not being difficult, you're being honest and sensible.

edit: I just saw your size requests. Like tex said, make sure if you go flat, the retainer is 1.5" or 2". If less, she should make adapters. You can use modified acrylic or poly-carb

 

[MikePro]

usually the point of a thermalformed face, is to offset the plastic from the illumination source in order to diffuse the lighting.
you CAN simply use flat faces, BUT chances are the sign is super slim and you will see hotspots.

we have "rigged it" in the past, by bending a frame to mimic the formed returns of an existing face and tape+rivoting it to the polycarbonate.
...or we simply replaced the flourescent tubing with an appropriate high-spread LED to compensate for potential hotspots and used a flat face.

 

[Gino]

usually the point of a thermalformed face, is to offset the plastic from the illumination source in order to diffuse the lighting.
you CAN simply use flat faces, BUT chances are the sign is super slim and you will see hotspots.

we have "rigged it" in the past, by bending a frame to mimic the formed returns of an existing face and tape+rivoting it to the polycarbonate.
...or we simply replaced the flourescent tubing with an appropriate high-spread LED to compensate for potential hotspots and used a flat face.

That all makes a lotta sense, but wouldn't that cost the customer more than what's called for after it's all finished ??

We had a shopping mall where we simply turned the LEDs sideways as if they were pointing toward the sides of the box, so it lessened the light facing the outwards.

 

[MikePro]

you can diffuse that way, yes, unless its a double-sided sign then you're going to lose a LOT of illumination by simply edge-lighting it like a VapeShop/Bodega window.

 

[Gino]

you can diffuse that way, yes, unless its a double-sided sign then you're going to lose a LOT of illumination by simply edge-lighting it like a VapeShop/Bodega window.

Get a load of this. It WAS double sided. However, it had a solid barrier down the middle, so we hadda do everything in duplicate. Light did not penetrate the metal barrier. Whomever made it, did it on purpose, but I can't figure out why. That's why, when I first looked at it, lights that were out, didn't match on both sides. I looked at one side and knew the length and how many retrofits would be needed. When we got to it and opened it up, we could only do one side. Hadda reorder the same thing

 

[MikePro]

doing weird things, yes you can illuminate a cabinet
....but it never turns out the way you'd hope/expect from direct illumination, especially if there is indirect light sources/pollution like street lights and/or other signs ....at that point, you may as well have just put a 40w bulb in the center of the cabinet and called it a discount.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Y'all getting too in the weeds.

Stace, I'd just get the polycarbonate off the reel stock from glantz or grimco. They'll really only have one thickness in stock appropriate for the width of the reel. Call up commercial plastics in Republic, MO... They are well priced for pan faces and you wouldn't have to make them.

 

[MikePro]

weed is the best

 

[ddarlak]

sounds like you are being difficult.

UL has nothing to do with replacing faces, as to the permit, it's only on you if you install them, so dont.

make the faces, warn her that there will be hot spots and who ever is replacing the lights with LEDs certainly can put the new faces in since they removed the old ones.

make $

 

[Stacey K]

Thanks everyone for the advice, extremely helpful! I'll pass on the retainer info and hotspot info. I guess it's not as big of a deal as I was thinking. I was also thinking I would have to apply the vinyl in my living room because I can only get 48" signboards in my basement, but the material is flexible so it should be OK.

Talking things through and the answers appear! LOL

 

[Function Graphics]

I have a good customer of mine who wants her pan faces replaced. I originally told her I don't do lifts and I'm not UL certified so she would need to contact XXX instead. She just sent me all the dimensions for "sleeves" I'm like what is a sleeve? She wants me to cut her regular poly in place of the pan faces. I said that's just not something I do, you can call XXX. She keeps arguing me that an electrician is putting new LED wiring in and she's going to install them so nothing can come back on me.

But - that's not the way I see it...am I being difficult?

4 signs at 67"x48"
2 signs at 67"x60"

I think I read from someone one time part of the pan face is what makes it sturdier and if you just put a flat piece in it could fall out. The business is also on a state highway so if there's an issue and she didn't get permits and I have no UL insurance...I'm liable, correct? (I have regular sign business insurance but I'm no electrician)

Thanks!

Here's my 2 cents, replacing a pan face with a flat panel polycarb can work as long as the cabinet is deep enough, otherwise you'll see "stripes" caused by the bulbs if it now lays too close to the face. LEDs are small enough that may no longer be an issue. For large sign faces, we use what we call a "hanging channel". its basically a 1" strip of polycarbonate same length of the sign, we pop rivet it to the top, front of the face. This piece slides into the channel of the top lip. This allows the sign face to hang a bit versus sitting its entire weight on the bottom lip. Winds can blow and that sucker will "hook" and unlikely blow out. Hope that makes sense. Sign maker since 2003. Get you money and Good luck!

 

[brdesign]

I have a good customer of mine who wants her pan faces replaced. I originally told her I don't do lifts and I'm not UL certified so she would need to contact XXX instead. She just sent me all the dimensions for "sleeves" I'm like what is a sleeve? She wants me to cut her regular poly in place of the pan faces. I said that's just not something I do, you can call XXX. She keeps arguing me that an electrician is putting new LED wiring in and she's going to install them so nothing can come back on me.

But - that's not the way I see it...am I being difficult?

4 signs at 67"x48"
2 signs at 67"x60"

I think I read from someone one time part of the pan face is what makes it sturdier and if you just put a flat piece in it could fall out. The business is also on a state highway so if there's an issue and she didn't get permits and I have no UL insurance...I'm liable, correct? (I have regular sign business insurance but I'm no electrician)

Thanks!

Most companies I've worked for have a waiver for situations like this, for the customer to sign, stating the customer is responsible for the installation and obtaining any necessary permits. Most jurisdictions usually go after whoever installed the sign if it was not properly permitted.

 

[Gino]

Most companies I've worked for have a waiver for situations like this, for the customer to sign, stating the customer is responsible for the installation and obtaining any necessary permits. Most jurisdictions usually go after whoever installed the sign if it was not properly permitted.

While that might work in some instances, ya really can't rely on a signed/dated waiver. When you have someone sign a waiver, generally you are already admitting it is wrong to do, therefore, by them signing such a paper, just means you're gonna take their money and not give a sh!t. What happens is, you, being the professional, should know right from wrong, but you're still gonna do it wrong. There are times.... and then there are NOT times, waivers will work, but their not a cover-up to do something wrong, just to make a quick buck, not to mention the reputation you'll get if word gets out that YOU made the sign which failed.

 

[unclebun]

I think there's a lot being bandied about in this thread which is not really helpful or fully true.

There are essentially two issues in question.

First, can you replace a pan face with flat. You can, of course physically do that. BUT, and it's a big but, there are two primary reasons why a pan face is specified in the first place. One is that it allows use of a thinner cabinet while still maintaining the required distance between the lamps and the face. The other is that moulding the plastic in the pan shape provides stiffness not present in a thin sheet of plastic. Usually both of these are factors in a sign that came with pan faces. Of the two signs Stacey is talking about, the 5' tall one is most likely to have problems with the rigidity aspect, especially if polycarbonate is used. The ways around this are to use thicker material (more cost), acrylic (more prone to breaking though less prone to yellowing), or to use hangers in the cabinet or the crude method of screwing the face to the cabinet at the top behind the retainer so the plastic hangs rather than slumps in the sign.

The lighting, of course, is the other problem. Most signs out in the field that have pan faces came with fluorescent lighting. Even if you use the common retrofits to LED, the lighting is still going to be in the same places, and still prone to hot spots if a flat face is used. This is generally unacceptable even if the face slumping is not an issue. There are LED grids available which are designed with close LED spacing that will work with smaller distances between the light source and the face yet still provide even lighting. But it all has to be engineered to work together.

The second major issue regards installation and permitting. Stacey doesn't provide installation. The customer wants to self-install. In our community, a business offering installation has to have a general contractor's license or they cannot pull a sign permit. But the customer can pull the permit without need to be a general contractor. Strange but that's the way it is here. So there may be no problem whatsoever if her community ordinances are the same as ours. Nonetheless, IF a permit is required and Stacey doesn't install the sign, there is no repercussion to her with what happens to a plastic sign she makes and sells. She can show she sold a cash and carry sign and she has no idea what happened with it after it left her shop. Just like Lowes can sell a bunch of lumber, pipe, electrical wire and junction boxes and electric panels and have no liability for a building built without permit and inspection.

As far as any worry with a flat face replacing a pan face running into some kind of problem with electric safety or anything like that, there is no issue. And I've never seen a safety issue as regards the flange on a sign that came with pan faces. They have always been 1.5" or wider, which is more than enough to hold a flat face too. On double faced large signs even pan faces require internal bumpers to prevent blowout.