square foot pricing?!

[OldPaint]

ok my 2nd mistake.......should be $480 then the end price would be $840.00 damn egg nog and CAPT MORGANS!!!!

 

[signage]

roll of vinyl 24x150=$75 cost. 24" roll of transfer tape.$60.00 combine the 2 for $135 for 150 feet of combined material. $135..........IS COST for 2x150= 300 SQ FT of vinyl/and tape. so combined it cost you $.45 sq ft!!!!!!! This should be $.90 sq fr!!!!!
so at $10 sq ft...........you make a decent profit.

OP I would like to know how to stretch a 150ft of vinyl and transfer to 300ft! I think you need to go back to school after all these mistakes!
Your math looks like Bush's fuzzy math I think you are just like him!)))))))))hehehehehehehehehehehe

 

[Fred Weiss]

When I get my car worked on, the mechanic doesn't charge me by the square foot ... he charges me based on time and materials. Prices among competing mechanics will vary based on the mechanic's shop rate, how much time he estimates the job will take, the prices he gets on materials and parts, and the markup he charges on materials and parts.

My selection of the mechanic who will do the work is based on my perception of his ability to do the job through:

• Direct knowledge of him
• Recommendation of someone else
• Reputation
• Availability and turnaround time
• Geographic location
• Advertising

You can fill in the trade or profession ... plumber, electrician, builder, contractor, printer, web designer, etc., etc., etc. In all cases, they are selling a solution to my problem or need. They do not treat the solutions or services they provide as commodities. Rarely do they lose work due to price shopping.

When I get my car's gas tank filled, the gas station charges me by the gallon because he is selling me a commodity. Prices among competing stations will vary based on the whim of the owner, brand, grade, location, overhead etc. and are prominently displayed for all prospective customers to see.

My selection of the station who will fill my tank is based on my perception the value and convenience he provides through:

• Price
• Geographic location
• Brand reputation
• Quality of the facilities or shopping experience

You can fill in the product or commodity ... gasoline, clothing, groceries, etc., etc., etc. In all cases, they are selling a commodity or product that I need. They treat the solutions or services they provide as commodities because the same or similar products are readily available nearby from a competitor. Often they lose business due to price shopping and often stimulate business by sales and discounting.

I long ago decided as a sign contractor that I would not allow my work to be treated as a commodity. When I am pricing for a retail client, I apply square foot pricing in ways similar to how Bob stated and only as a way of simplifying my own mental calculations. The client is never made aware of it.

When I decided in 1984 to also offer wholesale services to the trade, it was with the full acceptance of treating my production of graphic products as a commodity. I published my pricing, discounts and even supplied pricing formulas to my customers so I could attract orders without the time lost quoting every job.

To me the distinctions are quite clear. In dealing with retail customers I do not allow my work to be treated as a commodity and do not share my methods of arriving at a price with my customers. I am a custom solution provider of signs and other graphic products and services. If you find yourself sharing such information with retail clients, you may want to ask yourself why you are selling gasoline instead of custom signage solutions.

 

[Tim Aucoin]

When I am pricing for a retail client, I apply square foot pricing in ways similar to how Bob stated and only as a way of simplifying my own mental calculations. The client is never made aware of it.

To me the distinctions are quite clear. In dealing with retail customers I do not allow my work to be treated as a commodity and do not share my methods of arriving at a price with my customers.

X2
We do square foot pricing in-house (on certain products) to simplify the quoting process, but always quote a final sale price to the customer (with the exception of two). For us, square foot pricing only makes sense on our inkjet products and mounting substrates. When it comes to decal work and any work done on the Gerber, we rely on Estimate software for pricing, as it ensures we are charging materials and most importantly, time!

 

[DavidLSI]

In this case they are arbitrary but they are close to what I actually use. The delta between the min and the max is what determines when the curve produced by the algorithm becomes asymptotic about the minimum value. Which I want to occur around a 4x8 or so.

I set my min and max by asking myself "What would I charge for, say, a 1 ft^2 or smaller sign?" A shop minimum charge so to speak. That figure became my maximum. The I asked myself "What is the absolute minimum per ft^2 I'd work for?" That number became my minimum.

The point being that with any sort of simplistic flat rate you either hose yourself on small jobs or hose the client on large jobs.

Integrating a well thought out min and max generates larger per ft^2 prices for smaller jobs and smaller ft^2 prices for larger jobs. Just as it should be.

Can this formula be plugged into a spread sheet?

 

[bob]

...we rely on Estimate software for pricing, as it ensures we are charging materials and most importantly, time!

The major problem with Estimate is that it's extremely difficult to generate anything even close the same price for functionally identical products. The system deals in far too much meaningless minutia and not the bigger picture. It assumes an Aristotelian universe in which everything is unique and needs its own price rather than a far more realistic universe of essentially fungible goods where trivial differences are lost in the grass and are not worth fretting over.

For example it computes materials based on actual usage and not what is unrolled, as it should. Worse, it treats materials like media, mask, etc. as inventory rather than expensed items. The latter being the only civilized way to run a business.

A more insipid problem is that by using packages like Estimate et al you seldom, if ever, develop a complete understanding of the business in which you have chosen to be.

I had a copy if the program and consigned it to the burn pile. It was worthless for my purposes.

 

[Sign Up Graphics]

Sign Up Graphics

 

[bob]

Can this formula be plugged into a spread sheet?

Of course. I currently use an Excel workbook with separate sheets for signs, banners, RTA, printing, and art prints on stretchers.

Each of these sheets are fundamentally the same but each integrates various things unique to that particular niche which it supports.

For example, on the 'signs' worksheet I select 'Intermediate', 'Premium', or 'Specialty' for media and I have a min/max pair for each of these. I enter width, height, quantity, and marked up substrate cost and the price for a single copy and for the quantity specified for both one and two sides is displayed.

I could, just as easily, have used a single min/max pair and added a linear foot component for the media selection based on the height and/or width specified. In fact if I ever redo the thing, that's most likely what I'd do.

 

[signgal]

Again, thanks for all the fantastic responses! Glad I touched on something so many were willing to contribute to. I hope others have found the info as helpful as I have.

 

[scarface]

idk about you but this all made me 100% more confused.

I use graphix calc but i just don't think it's pricing right ya know.

 

[Lance]

Pricing jobs will always be a concern, no matter what industry you are in. It hurts to lose the jobs you thought you could win, but there's no sure way of guaranteeing a win.
The area you're in will also help determine your pricing.
I do as some have suggested, sq/ft pricing, but keep ALL the info to myself and simply give the customer a total cost mentioning any possible add ons.
I do keep it fairly flexible, in that the same type of job may have a different cost to different customers for different reasons.
My method seems to work well for me down here, and I'm happy to adjust when necessary to either win or lose a job.

 

[scarface]

What' im coming up with is 1-10 sqft is one price then drop it down a few bucks for 11-35sq ft

But what i'm stuck at is Old Paint said $10 psf for example plus substrate. So i guess if someone wants a 1 color 4x8 coro at $10 psf it would be $320 plus $20 for the coro substrate (that's 100% mark up on the sheet) so $340 roughly for the job finished with artwork being ready?

Wondering what you would charge for double colors, i'm thinking 50% onto the square footage?

 

[Fred Weiss]

What' im coming up with is 1-10 sqft is one price then drop it down a few bucks for 11-35sq ft

But what i'm stuck at is Old Paint said $10 psf for example plus substrate. So i guess if someone wants a 1 color 4x8 coro at $10 psf it would be $320 plus $20 for the coro substrate (that's 100% mark up on the sheet) so $340 roughly for the job finished with artwork being ready?

Wondering what you would charge for double colors, i'm thinking 50% onto the square footage?

I would question that approach to pricing as there is no variance for difficulty, graphic devices such as reverses or coverage. Based on how you are stating it, you would charge the same for a FOR SALE with phone number and a menu board with 200 words and a couple of hours just in creating the layout.

The FOR SALE sign might cost me $25 in materials and be out the door in 30 minutes. So I would charge an hour's shop rate and double the materials ... in my case $125.00. The menu board might be $30 materials and 4 hours to layout and complete. So I would be at $360.00 (4 hours @ $75 and $60 for materials).

In all cases of attempting to arrive at a quotation price, if you rely strictly on formulas and not calculate time and materials as a double check, you will lose jobs for being too high and do jobs for less than you should.

Charging extra for a second color is no different. The question to be answered is how does the second color affect your materials cost and your total time to complete the project.

 

[OldPaint]

What' im coming up with is 1-10 sqft is one price then drop it down a few bucks for 11-35sq ft

But what i'm stuck at is Old Paint said $10 psf for example plus substrate. So i guess if someone wants a 1 color 4x8 coro at $10 psf it would be $320 plus $20 for the coro substrate (that's 100% mark up on the sheet) so $340 roughly for the job finished with artwork being ready?

Wondering what you would charge for double colors, i'm thinking 50% onto the square footage?

YOU MAKE IT CONFUSING.... i dont.
$10 a SQ FT.......... is the easiest way to calculate A BASIC BALLPARK FIGURE..... for your time, labor, and decent profit..........THEN YOU CAN ADJUST UP OR DOWN......in price.
really simple.
1 color 4x8 @ $10 s.f. is $320.00 your right, now this price is a BASIC START POINT........so you DONT UNDER PRICE THE JOB. you follow that?
now you want to charge $5.00 s.f............HALF OF $320 is $160.00!!!! do you understand?
now you want charge $7, $8, $9.......pick up a pen and paper. as i said.....SUB STRAIGHT WILL MAKE IT MORE OR LESS...$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!
a 4 x 8 coro sign...........STILL HAS $320.00 WORTH OF VALUE....AS A SIGN of that size. you want to sell it for $5 s.f............go ahead. you still make money BUT DEVALUE YOUR WORK.
4x8 on ALUMICORE(cost is $100.00 for a sheet) @ $10 s.f. you still make decent profit, but now the material is taking money outa your pocket!!!!! you following this?
simple math...............to get you to understand the value of THE SIZE of a sign.
iam with you on the smaller signs.....to increase $ per s.f.
2 x 2 =4 s.f @10 sq ft.........is a $40. if you do it 2 sided, its now an $80.............
but i got em here sellin 18x24..........for $12 for BOTH SIDES on coro. i would rather get the $40, for ITS TRUE VALUE.....
i had some lady call me on day for 2- 18 x 24 on coro....2 sided.....asked me if i "priced matched" other sign shops......then she said she called another place they said they would do em for $10 each..................I HUNG UP ON HER.

 

[scarface]

YOU MAKE IT CONFUSING.... i dont.
$10 a SQ FT.......... is the easiest way to calculate A BASIC BALLPARK FIGURE..... for your time, labor, and decent profit..........THEN YOU CAN ADJUST UP OR DOWN......in price.
really simple.
1 color 4x8 @ $10 s.f. is $320.00 your right, now this price is a BASIC START POINT........so you DONT UNDER PRICE THE JOB. you follow that?
now you want to charge $5.00 s.f............HALF OF $320 is $160.00!!!! do you understand?
now you want charge $7, $8, $9.......pick up a pen and paper. as i said.....SUB STRAIGHT WILL MAKE IT MORE OR LESS...$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!
a 4 x 8 coro sign...........STILL HAS $320.00 WORTH OF VALUE....AS A SIGN of that size. you want to sell it for $5 s.f............go ahead. you still make money BUT DEVALUE YOUR WORK.
4x8 on ALUMICORE(cost is $100.00 for a sheet) @ $10 s.f. you still make decent profit, but now the material is taking money outa your pocket!!!!! you following this?
simple math...............to get you to understand the value of THE SIZE of a sign.
iam with you on the smaller signs.....to increase $ per s.f.
2 x 2 =4 s.f @10 sq ft.........is a $40. if you do it 2 sided, its now an $80.............
but i got em here sellin 18x24..........for $12 for BOTH SIDES on coro. i would rather get the $40, for ITS TRUE VALUE.....
i had some lady call me on day for 2- 18 x 24 on coro....2 sided.....asked me if i "priced matched" other sign shops......then she said she called another place they said they would do em for $10 each..................I HUNG UP ON HER.

I'm slowly getting it OP.

So basically the PSF price includes the substrate within reason?

As far a second color and double sides, are you charging double the price or 50%?

Now on vehicles, you charge the PSF price then your install charge for the final price right?

 

[Jillbeans]

I sell by the job and by the advertising value the customer is getting.
I haven't sold by the square foot since the very early 90s.
I know what it costs to produce the item and I know how long it will take me to make, and I charge accordingly.
I sometimes when doing an estimate will revert to a mix of square foot and materials X 3 and hourly shop rate base and then go from there. But only if it is something unfamiliar to me, and for my own use not the customer's.
Love....Jill

 

[schurms]

All markets are truely different, its always supply and demand. Pricing pressures in the last few years have sent prices down as more equipment is out there and more people are doing it.
You have to bid to stay a float , so the business with the best controlled cost has a advantage.
The big players have a place as do the mom and pop shops.

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

Thank you jill!

 

[OldPaint]

"I know what it costs to produce the item and I know how long it will take me to make, and I charge accordingly."
HE DONT...............
As far a second color and double sides, are you charging double the price or 50%?
COLORS.....unless its in HI-PERFORMANCE vinyl, or more then 1 or 3......dont change pricing for me. and you can add for colors if you want

Now on vehicles, you charge the PSF price then your install charge for the final price right?
VEHICLES.........can be done by s.f. if its a VAN/BOX VAN/TRAILER..........doors and small window jobs.....charge time and materials....

 

[ActualGrafix]

Just keep it simple. I charge 1.67 cents per second.