square foot pricing?!

[signgal]

Hope this is in the right thread and I'm a little scared of what I might be starting, given the tension in the forums today but here goes...

How does everyone feel about giving the average customer square foot pricing, like on banners and site signs?

I just took yet another phone call from a customer claiming to have received square foot pricing from "other" company's, when he was aghast at the price I quoted him. Wondering if I'm doin' it wrong.

so... let's hear it.

 

[Circleville Signs]

I give square foot pricing on everything. Artwork isnt' included in that price. Simple.


Gary

 

[SignManiac]

I always give them a large ballpark range for s.f. pricing and tell them it will vary depending on what they need. So I never commit to a price until I know what it is they need. If they don't call back, no sweat. I haven't wasted any time. You won't get every job so no big deal.

 

[signgal]

yeah, that's the way I've always handled it. You know how hard it is to let any job go right now but I'm trying to stay in the same frame of mind we operated under during the not-so-lean times XD Just started to question my ways.

 

[OldPaint]

i been doing SQ FT pricing, since i started. all those wierd math intensive formulas some of these vinyl people come up with just make me chuckle. ive always done the pricing in my head when i quote a job. and i base it on a simple method.
$10.00 a SQ FT!!!!!!
4x8=32 SQ FT............X $10= $320
2 X 2=4 SQ FT............X$10=$20
2 truck doors most are 18x36....4.5 SQ FT X 2= 10 SQ FT X $10= $100.00
now this is A BASIC SIMPLE PRICE ESTABLISHING POINT!!!
if you want to charge $5.00 SQ FT............cut the $10 S.F. $$$$ in half. if you want to charge $20 S.F. .....DOUBLE the $10 figure.
art work, design time, substrate, install, travel other materials TO BE ADDED TO THIS!!!!!!!
i went to a guy who hada 4B in the 80's..............he give me a price list for vinyl broken out in HEIGHT OF 1/2" INCREMENTS..........up to 12 inches. was crazy....
ive had people call and want a price on EACH LETTER...........thinking its cheaper that way.
VEHICLES/VANS can be done the same way, i do this for BOX VANS..... TRAILERS.
roll of vinyl 24x150=$75 cost. 24" roll of transfer tape.$60.00 combine the 2 for $135 for 150 feet of combined material. $135..........IS COST for 2x150= 300 SQ FT of vinyl/and tape. so combined it cost you $.45 sq ft!!!!!!!
so at $10 sq ft...........you make a decent profit.

 

[signgal]

Thanks so much for taking the time to explain in depth! You don't find that you price yourself out of the game? or you adjust your $10 down for cheaper materials like coroplast and banners?

 

[scarface]

*listening in*

Wondering what you would do for digital material as well.

Like how do you dertermine it's $10 psf and not $8 or $15?

Also what about double colors and all.

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

me myself and i have always tried to avoid pricing by the sq ft. not all 4X8 (insert any size you wish) signs are created equally.

my goal has always been to help the client identify what the purpose of the sign is, how to communicate that message in the most effective manner in a way that generates the intended result.

i could understand pricing by the sq ft if you view yourself similar to kinkos or just printing client supplied artwork but in a custom environment in my opinion there is much more profitable pricing methods.

sell your client a solution and price it accordingly.

 

[luggnut]

i try to never give a sq ft price ... even if i price it by the square. when people know your pricing structure they will try to use that knowledge to take advantage. i'm not great with the pricing thing so i use EstiMate software and use a $85 per hr shop rate... so the time involved is the real factor in price. if i have everything setup right i come out with a profitable price... i have shot myself in the foot by not accurately estimating the time on some things like difficult weeding or complex art.

when things are set more for hourly rate it balances the coroplast vs. polymetal sign... if i put a full digital print on either everything is the same except substrate price which is only about $50 difference. so the selling price is not a lot different..


listen to dan...

 

[p3]

We basically do the same thing old paint does. But I don't know if my math is bad, or what but something doesn't add up in one of his scenarios...

2 X 2=4 SQ FT............X$10=$20

Or am I reading it wrong?

 

[Mike Paul]

A custom made product should never be sold by the sq. ft.

 

[gabagoo]

I use sq ft pricing and then sit back and think it over. In some cases depending on the size it can get way to expensive and other times it can get to be to cheap. I then think about time. I want to run my shop at $70.00 per hour so I have to key that into the formula somewhere. I guess I wing it and after so many years I sort of have a feel for what it is worth, but I do use sq ft as a starting point. And I don't tell anyone that I charge by the sq ft for reasons mentioned in threads above.

 

[surf city]

I read it the same as you did............must be some kinda new goventment math.....lol. obviously it was a typo.

 

[surf city]

er um "government" I mean.

 

[bob]

Nothing wrong with pricing by the square foot and there's absolutely everything wrong with having a simplistic per square foot price.

I use a simple algorithm that integrates all of the pertinant data into a square foot price for a specific size, substrate, and media quality. It yields a curve such that the larger the work is the less per square foot it is. This also automatically handles the curious notion of volume discount since multiple copies are fed into the algorithm and treated as one giant work.The algoritm is:

(Max-Min)+Min*Area+2*Substrate.

Max is the maximum per ft^2 price I would ever charge for a given media. Say for a job of 1 ft^2 or less.

Min is the absolute minimum I would ever charge for that same media regardless of the size of the job.

Area is the total area of the job.

Substrate is my price for the substrate.

For example if, for some media or another my max was $25 and my min $8 then a 2x4 sign on a $10 substrate would be ($25-$8)+$8*2*4+2*$10 or $101. Or $12.625 per square foot for that size on that media on that substrate.

The larger the job the more the ft^2 prices tends to become asymptotic about the minimum value.

If I have to buy special stuff for a job, like some weird media, it gets added in at a 200% markup. All of it that I have to buy, not just what I might end up using.

I don't worry overmuch about complexity of the work, my model is setup to hit the 80% of the work that is, for me, normal. While every job is different they are all pretty much the same as well. I make more on some jobs and less on others but the delta is small and it all averages out in the end. I never, ever, lose on any job.

 

[grafixemporium]

Seems to me your algorithm is based heavily on the max/min number. In your example you use $25 max and $8 min. That's a huge variance. Are these arbitrary numbers? Or are they based on something?

 

[Jim Doggett]

Square foot pricing is fine if they're bringing a file and buying vinyl/print-lam and substrate. For everything else, I think you need to build on the theme of you're the most reliable path to their success, i.e., on company vehicle stuff:

Price is relative; I can letter your company name phone number for as little as $100. Or I can turn it into an advertising medium that will get you business, with large, compelling images and text. But I gotta know your business and how the vehicle is used. BTW, you don't park it in garage do you? How many miles are you driving each day? On what roads? Also we have these great [home show, etc. events]. Get there early; and get a primo parkling spot. You'll get 1000s of high-quality impressions. (When they visualize, they start taking mental ownership. When you tell them how to succeed, they believe you're their path to success.)

IMHO,

Jim

 

[bob]

Seems to me your algorithm is based heavily on the max/min number. In your example you use $25 max and $8 min. That's a huge variance. Are these arbitrary numbers? Or are they based on something?

In this case they are arbitrary but they are close to what I actually use. The delta between the min and the max is what determines when the curve produced by the algorithm becomes asymptotic about the minimum value. Which I want to occur around a 4x8 or so.

I set my min and max by asking myself "What would I charge for, say, a 1 ft^2 or smaller sign?" A shop minimum charge so to speak. That figure became my maximum. The I asked myself "What is the absolute minimum per ft^2 I'd work for?" That number became my minimum.

The point being that with any sort of simplistic flat rate you either hose yourself on small jobs or hose the client on large jobs.

Integrating a well thought out min and max generates larger per ft^2 prices for smaller jobs and smaller ft^2 prices for larger jobs. Just as it should be.

 

[OldPaint]

2 X 2=4 S.F. X $10 S.F.=$40.................i made my 1st mistake in my life(snicker snicker)
Thanks so much for taking the time to explain in depth! You don't find that you price yourself out of the game? or you adjust your $10 down for cheaper materials like coroplast and banners?
ANSWER:
now this is A BASIC SIMPLE PRICE ESTABLISHING POINT!!!
if you want to charge $5.00 SQ FT............cut the $10 S.F. $$$$ in half. if you want to charge $20 S.F. .....DOUBLE the $10 figure.
art work, design time, substrate, install, travel other materials TO BE ADDED TO THIS!!!!!!!
my biggest problem............are those WHO UNDERBID what the job IS WORTH!!!!!!!!
now i said...........A BASIC SIMPLE PRICE ESTABLISHING POINT.
if iam doing the sign on CORO 4X8, that cost me $12.00, iam sure not going to charge the client for a sheet of 5 MIL ALUMICORE or MAX-METAL or POLYCARBONATE lighted face!!! if iam doing all the VINYL IN HIGH PERFORMANCE or TRANSLUCENT, its going to more the $10 S.F.!!!!!!! say you have a 4 x 6 plastic sign face. i know the plastic is going to COST ME...........$10-15 sq ft. translucent vinyl say cost $4.00 sq ft now iam sure not gona figure 24 s.f X $10 s.f.= $240.00!!!!! no way. BUT you can figure say $20 s.f. for the PANEL to the client. so $10 s.f. ...is $240, double that is $440. this is what they will PAY FOR THE PANEL. doing translucent vinyl, i would charge min $15 sq ft. so now i got @$10 s.f. is $240, HALF THAT, $120. now $240 +$120=$360..........for the vinyl. NO ARTWORK...if their is, then ADD IT AS ADDITIONAL CHARGES.
SO now we can say to client(remember this is estimate)sign panel, and vinyl installed on it will cost you............
$440.00 + $360=$800.00
now you can tell them this is not SET IN STONE......and tell them INSTALLATION, ART WORK, PERMITS....will be additional.......................this leaves the door open to add more$$$$$.
and if you decide to give it to them for less............THEN THEY THINK THEY GOT A DEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
and ill bet ......if you do all the fancy shop rate/design time/yuda yuda.....
I AINT FAR OFF!!!!! and i did this sittin here and no calcatator................

 

[S'N'S]

2 X 2=4 S.F. X $10 S.F.=$40.................i made my 1st mistake in my life(snicker snicker)
Thanks so much for taking the time to explain in depth! You don't find that you price yourself out of the game? or you adjust your $10 down for cheaper materials like coroplast and banners?
ANSWER:
now this is A BASIC SIMPLE PRICE ESTABLISHING POINT!!!
if you want to charge $5.00 SQ FT............cut the $10 S.F. $$$$ in half. if you want to charge $20 S.F. .....DOUBLE the $10 figure.
art work, design time, substrate, install, travel other materials TO BE ADDED TO THIS!!!!!!!
my biggest problem............are those WHO UNDERBID what the job IS WORTH!!!!!!!!
now i said...........A BASIC SIMPLE PRICE ESTABLISHING POINT.
if iam doing the sign on CORO 4X8, that cost me $12.00, iam sure not going to charge the client for a sheet of 5 MIL ALUMICORE or MAX-METAL or POLYCARBONATE lighted face!!! if iam doing all the VINYL IN HIGH PERFORMANCE or TRANSLUCENT, its going to more the $10 S.F.!!!!!!! say you have a 4 x 6 plastic sign face. i know the plastic is going to COST ME...........$10-15 sq ft. translucent vinyl say cost $4.00 sq ft now iam sure not gona figure 24 s.f X $10 s.f.= $240.00!!!!! no way. BUT you can figure say $20 s.f. for the PANEL to the client. so $10 s.f. ...is $240, double that is $440. this is what they will PAY FOR THE PANEL. doing translucent vinyl, i would charge min $15 sq ft. so now i got @$10 s.f. is $240, HALF THAT, $120. now $240 +$120=$360..........for the vinyl. NO ARTWORK...if their is, then ADD IT AS ADDITIONAL CHARGES.
SO now we can say to client(remember this is estimate)sign panel, and vinyl installed on it will cost you............
$440.00 + $360=$800.00
now you can tell them this is not SET IN STONE......and tell them INSTALLATION, ART WORK, PERMITS....will be additional.......................this leaves the door open to add more$$$$$.
and if you decide to give it to them for less............THEN THEY THINK THEY GOT A DEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
and ill bet ......if you do all the fancy shop rate/design time/yuda yuda.....
I AINT FAR OFF!!!!! and i did this sittin here and no calcatator................

OK we need to raise some money for a calculator for OP...:Big Laugh either that, or we need to get him another bottle