I've run into multiple occasions when a customer's want and desire violates all rules of effective design. Assuming you've pulled out all the stops to convince the client to see the light and why things are done a certain way but they just won't come around do you decline the business or just do it their way?
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walk the customer or do it their way
- Thread starter jaylem
- Start date
Rick
Certified Enneadecagon Designer
I practice both... my decision is based on how much
money I have in the bank, and in what state of mediocrity
I am feeling.
By practicing both, I can have a balance of keeping my
principles and have pride in my work, and be the sell out
that I loathe, but then spend the money on something lame
or impractical to ease the pain of my compromise.
I wouldn't have half the cr@p I own without cr@p work I
have done. Currently, I'm looking for a poop job so I can buy
a Roland MX-1 Mix Performer, Spectrasonic Omnisphere, a Moog
Voyager, and another Microphone... that's about the price of 2
lame logos and 4 therapy sessions.
money I have in the bank, and in what state of mediocrity
I am feeling.
By practicing both, I can have a balance of keeping my
principles and have pride in my work, and be the sell out
that I loathe, but then spend the money on something lame
or impractical to ease the pain of my compromise.
I wouldn't have half the cr@p I own without cr@p work I
have done. Currently, I'm looking for a poop job so I can buy
a Roland MX-1 Mix Performer, Spectrasonic Omnisphere, a Moog
Voyager, and another Microphone... that's about the price of 2
lame logos and 4 therapy sessions.
Its a dilemma that has haunted most of us for our entire careers. We just had a really easy to work with, but very persistent about their "design" ideas client. I thought I had lost them a few times after making some suggestions, but they came around just enough without feeling offended that we feel like we delivered what they wanted and $3,750.00 later we had made a halfway decent looking sign. The fact that they were really easy to work with and prompt on payment took away some of the sting of not having my design input taken seriously.
Our approach is that no matter what the final design ends up being, we always deliver a well executed sign. I know its hard to not "mail it in" on these types of jobs, but we just won't compromise or skimp even if we won't be featuring a particular job in our portfolio.
Our approach is that no matter what the final design ends up being, we always deliver a well executed sign. I know its hard to not "mail it in" on these types of jobs, but we just won't compromise or skimp even if we won't be featuring a particular job in our portfolio.
Attachments
Z SIGNS
New Member
Worst kind of customer
If they can't be educated as to what is proper.I just say yes Mam or yes sir cause I want the money.
I also make sure their crap artwork is signed off.
This is the worst kind of customer.
When the sign is finished and out there in the real world and it looks like crap
they end blaming it on you or knit picking about something else.
If they can't be educated as to what is proper.I just say yes Mam or yes sir cause I want the money.
I also make sure their crap artwork is signed off.
This is the worst kind of customer.
When the sign is finished and out there in the real world and it looks like crap
they end blaming it on you or knit picking about something else.
Desert_Signs
New Member
This is why I often turn away jobs I would like to have the money for. Particularly when they want to use cheap material that I KNOW will fail in 3 months for what they're using it for. Sure, I gave them what they asked for, but the issue is, 3 months down the road when it looks like total **** and someone asks where they got it done - they're going to tell them I did it. And that person isn't going to mention that I TOLD them it would fail like that, so the 'asker' will be left with the impression I do **** work....
Kottwitz-Graphics
New Member
Well said. I agree 125%. So if I have a customer ask for something that I know won't last, I just simply tell them that my reputation is much worth much more than what I will make on this project, and if they can't respect my experience, then I will pass on the job.
Sometimes I get a call in a day or so, but sometimes, the sign shows up, in all it's FUBARed glory, and I know they found some other sign guy that must have been hungrier than I was...
Jillbeans
New Member
It depends.
If I do end up taking the job, I never show anyone.
If they are a pain to work with, I can smell that before I quote, and I quote very high.
That relieves the sting of rejection.
If they are really a jerk, I tell them I am too busy and refer them to the lowballers.
Every once in awhile, you get a customer who will listen when you tell them that their idea won't work, and why.
The others are not portfolio pieces.
Love....Jill
If I do end up taking the job, I never show anyone.
If they are a pain to work with, I can smell that before I quote, and I quote very high.
That relieves the sting of rejection.
If they are really a jerk, I tell them I am too busy and refer them to the lowballers.
Every once in awhile, you get a customer who will listen when you tell them that their idea won't work, and why.
The others are not portfolio pieces.
Love....Jill
Billct2
Active Member
This was about poor design not the client requesting the wrong material.
But even with that, if someone wants a 2x8 coro for their sign instead of ACM I'll sell itthe problems I see with cheap materials usually appear to be the sign shop cutting corners not the client requesting it
But even with that, if someone wants a 2x8 coro for their sign instead of ACM I'll sell itthe problems I see with cheap materials usually appear to be the sign shop cutting corners not the client requesting it
JMPrinting
New Member
I just had this happen recently with a logo design. I designed a nice clean logo and the customer chopped it up with a scan in of a color pencil drawing for part of the logo. Oh well, sign off and the the money just don't post it on my facebook or website. He got banners, soft signage, and he's opening another business so I let it go.
Isnt it funny how we can sense those PITA customers *** soon as they walk in the door? I had a customer last week call and complain, ripping me on the phone because they passed out hundreds of business cards and the phone number was wrong. I got all the info from their site and it was wrong on there too. I asked politely, did you read the proof? "Yea but I was busy and quickly looked over it."
Isnt it funny how we can sense those PITA customers *** soon as they walk in the door? I had a customer last week call and complain, ripping me on the phone because they passed out hundreds of business cards and the phone number was wrong. I got all the info from their site and it was wrong on there too. I asked politely, did you read the proof? "Yea but I was busy and quickly looked over it."
Desert_Signs
New Member
Same statement applies. If the design is bad enough, ill consider not doing it because I like my reputation.
rjssigns
Active Member
It's been my experience that potential clients are more concerned with price than your reputation, portfolio, education, certifications etc...
As I've said before I'm no longer try to be the design police. Less headaches and better money. Besides, I've gotten quite used to eating three times a day and having a warm place to sleep.
As I've said before I'm no longer try to be the design police. Less headaches and better money. Besides, I've gotten quite used to eating three times a day and having a warm place to sleep.
I think you've brought up a good point, but I don't think all customers are built the same and I'm convinced that the egomaniacs out there, who ram their ideas through on us, ignore our input, can be "spotted the minute they walk through our door" etc.. are just as obvious to other well meaning customers seeking our guidance, expertise and experience.
Its like the boorish, chronic complainers and whiners who flood sites like Yelp, TripAdvisor, etc. with their petty and extensive complaints about EVERYTHING. Most reasonable people take their "opinions" with a grain of salt and consider the source.
I worry far more about my reputation of being a service oriented, well rounded signmaker OPEN to working with all potential clients, than as a snobby, arrogant, standoffish, know it all who turns down anyone not bringing me spoon fed jobs that I fully approve of in advance. I've had some initially tough nut clients over the years that once I earned their trust, became both intensely loyal, but also very pro-active and vocal referral machines for me. If you read anything written by very successful people about how they achieved what they did, it is always about building trust and relationships with clients. You never know when that diamond in the rough client will develop into a career long advocate for your skills.
I also like the three meals a day and a warm bed deal.
Rick
Certified Enneadecagon Designer
I only design, so maybe my take on this is different but...
Most clients going into a sign shop are usually looking for price.
Most clients going to a design firm/ad agency/environmental graphic design firm are looking at your work.
Does your website or storefront cater to quality graphic design? or a sign shop that happens to design?
Does it scream replicator and cheap logo design?
I don't see having an opposite opinion to my clients as being snobby, arrogant, standoffish, know it all...
sometimes, on occasion, jobs must be turned down on principle... on occasion, a man (and kids) has to eat
but then there is college, a new car/truck once in a while, maybe buy a house, oh! insurance, retirement maybe
even a vacation once in a while, hobbies, tools, taxes, new computers and software upgrades... can't be done
with cheapie chump clients who have no taste (unless I had a spouse that worked and had insurance - which I don't)
I need clients willing to pay for my services as I would pay for theirs. I think I'm a decent designer, but in reality,
i'm looking for exceptional clients. Clients who are OPEN to new ideas and accept that equal exchange of ideas
is probably going to have exceptional results. Like I said, I will fire a client, and I will work with bad ones...
that way I can learn the art of compromise and maybe win over the occasional client with bad taste... or learn
that the client was right all along, and make adjustments in my thinking.
When presented with a client with bad ideas... that is usually well after a contract is signed. I have to
compromise or return some of the deposit. If the clients ideas are opposite of the design brief, they pay more.
If the ideas a really bad... well, how can I design a bad logo/layout/sign... I mean I have the capacity to
design bad, but in reality, it's really hard for me to do that. The opposite can not be said of sign shops with little
design skill. I've seen hundreds of sign shop websites, many of them I shake my head at wondering how they
think it's presentable work... naturally they are going to attract that kind of client. I think it's good to make
an honest assessment of your website, storefront, marketing materials and presentation... or continue to
wallow in lackluster clients.
Not many small sign shop websites impress me, but I find these sites effective at communicating good design/fabrication...
http://www.sideshowsignco.com
http://www.artsigns.com <---- not a pretty site, but nice work
http://diazsignart.com
http://starrstudios.net
We need to be careful about making too many generalizations. There are a couple of world class, award winning, highly publicized signmakers in my area.
http://www.southpawsigns.com/
http://www.avilasigndesign.com/
Nobody is going to them just for price.
We're trying to navigate this now 8 year old, originally configured as a low price, high volume, average to good quality, but not memorable design sign shop into something more befitting of my skills and the types of work worth investing the effort into selling. With that being said, we are also keenly aware of and interested in continuing to be a shop for the commoners. Our clients range from mom and pop retailers, one person service tradespeople to multi, multi million dollar wineries. Our average customer really appreciates the fact that I don't talk down to them or brush off their little projects as beneath us. We go out of our way to make everyone welcome and a little bit of hand holding and guidance for sincere, friendly customers has paid off countless times.
You can reject the notion that both the typical old school sign maker and much of the general public view graphic designers as arrogant, snobby, standoffish know it alls, but its out there and being someone trained and skilled as both, I've witnessed it for much of my career. People always resent those who can do something they can't do, or who make it look so easy. I've worked with no shortage of very skilled signmakers who just couldn't drop their anti-intellectual, blue collar angst towards anyone they perceived as being a few rungs up the ladder from them.
The few posts where there was an outright, unwavering rejection of even trying to work with a client bringing in a poor design idea or displaying the slightest bit of stubbornness has got to be acknowledged for what it is. Arrogant, snobby and standoffish.
I think there are many types of customers who could be erroneously defined as difficult or too sold on their bad design ideas. IMO, most just don't know any better and have always just treated their sign maker or marketing people like a bull in a china shop does. Some honestly don't know how the process works or that good design really can make a difference. When this type gets patronized or condescended to, it just deepens their resentment towards all of us. Once the ones we can reach see the results of a little bit of trust, you've got them for life.
Well, I've accomplished all I could today on this enormous rush job we've been working on the last week, so I'm off to walk the dog and get dinner started for us. Biggest job since we bought the business last year, but its all just banners and coroplast stuff printed on the flatbed for a huge cycling event next weekend. Nothing too exciting, but very good money.
Have a good one.
http://www.southpawsigns.com/
http://www.avilasigndesign.com/
Nobody is going to them just for price.
We're trying to navigate this now 8 year old, originally configured as a low price, high volume, average to good quality, but not memorable design sign shop into something more befitting of my skills and the types of work worth investing the effort into selling. With that being said, we are also keenly aware of and interested in continuing to be a shop for the commoners. Our clients range from mom and pop retailers, one person service tradespeople to multi, multi million dollar wineries. Our average customer really appreciates the fact that I don't talk down to them or brush off their little projects as beneath us. We go out of our way to make everyone welcome and a little bit of hand holding and guidance for sincere, friendly customers has paid off countless times.
You can reject the notion that both the typical old school sign maker and much of the general public view graphic designers as arrogant, snobby, standoffish know it alls, but its out there and being someone trained and skilled as both, I've witnessed it for much of my career. People always resent those who can do something they can't do, or who make it look so easy. I've worked with no shortage of very skilled signmakers who just couldn't drop their anti-intellectual, blue collar angst towards anyone they perceived as being a few rungs up the ladder from them.
The few posts where there was an outright, unwavering rejection of even trying to work with a client bringing in a poor design idea or displaying the slightest bit of stubbornness has got to be acknowledged for what it is. Arrogant, snobby and standoffish.
I think there are many types of customers who could be erroneously defined as difficult or too sold on their bad design ideas. IMO, most just don't know any better and have always just treated their sign maker or marketing people like a bull in a china shop does. Some honestly don't know how the process works or that good design really can make a difference. When this type gets patronized or condescended to, it just deepens their resentment towards all of us. Once the ones we can reach see the results of a little bit of trust, you've got them for life.
Well, I've accomplished all I could today on this enormous rush job we've been working on the last week, so I'm off to walk the dog and get dinner started for us. Biggest job since we bought the business last year, but its all just banners and coroplast stuff printed on the flatbed for a huge cycling event next weekend. Nothing too exciting, but very good money.
Have a good one.
Rick
Certified Enneadecagon Designer
I said MOST... not all. And part of my last statement is, there are exceptions.
Avila and SouthPaw are among the exceptions because they market themselves
better than replicating sign shops.
The other thing... rejecting crappy work is not arrogant, snobby and standoffish.
It's a business model based on doing quality design. Rejecting bad design allows
a client to find a qualified replicator to do exactly what they want, it's what sign
shops do... not what most graphic designers aspire to. Again, I'm not a sign shop...
I design signs, sign systems, logos, ads and marketing materials. I occasionally
design crap... I occasionally lead crap clients/work to replicating design shops
simply because it's not fun, not good for business and does not follow my business
model. I'm constantly at odds with clients who misinterpret codes, ADA, safety signs
and have a liability release at the ready. It's very, very rare a client relationship goes
bad. If I reject work occasionally because the work is not fun, or ugly as sin. I find that
practicing my business model, if I take on ugly work, it's a compromise but usually
because I need to keep cashflow so I can practice my business model.
Now if I was a sign shop that replicates.... different story, gimme the crap, press print,
next in line please...
My experience, spans many years and various places. I learned from the whole
experience that I can make more money doing what I love to do. If I have to
replicate too long, then I'm not at all happy.
The other thing is my work is similar... small mom and pops and service oriented
companies... even local wineries, we also cater to billion dollar companies. They
hire me for my opinion and my expertise. Most service oriented companies and retailers
sink hundreds of thousands to millions into their companies. They charge for their
products and services, they are also unapologetic experts in their field. I don't see,
after 35 years, that I have to apologize for picking and choosing who I work for....
As the sign says... I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone