What do you guys think?

[Gino]

Uh-Oh...

Here’s another hint and it has nothing to do with your layout or artistic talent.

Don’t let customers talk you into using the wrong substrates for the wrong application. Those faces you cleaned off and re-lettered were probably old… in fact very old. The technique used to create those 7/Up signs has been around since the 40’s and 50’s and was stopped around the mid 80’s. Therefore, the plastic faces are somewhat brittle. Even so, if the faces were put back into a cabinet, they would have the type support needed to keep them in tack for a few more years. Installing them in the fashion that was used here will probably shorten their life expectancy quite drastically.

Almost all plastic products are not meant to have wind hit them from all angles, especially in the colder climates [which looks like where you might be located ??]. When these faces are exposed to very cold temperatures for long periods of time, they become very brittle… and without the warmth from the bulbs and cabinet meant for these faces, they could easily bust apart, even if a bird flies into it. That, on top of being old is playing with danger. A better idea would’ve been to use a wood product like ‘MDO’ or an aluminum product such as ‘Alumalite’. There are many other products from which to choose, but as I started out, don’t let the customer ‘Bully’ you into using inferior products, just to save himself money, because he’ll come back to you and want to know why YOU as the professional didn’t enlighten him to the fact that he was being ‘Cheap’.

Anyway, this is only an observation, not a tongue-lashing. You have to learn somewhere and :signs101:is a great place to find all the ‘INS & OUTS’ related to the sign industry… and then some !!!

Still a good-looking ‘First Sign’. Nice touch to have a before and after. Save those pictures, you’ll enjoy them many years from now. I still have pictures of signs I did almost 40 years ago.

 

[Techman]

Lets see here,
The first was done by a pro, Yes? It has ALL CAPS which looks good. YES??

Then I would've only changed /removed the 7 up logo and made the WINDMILL bigger and all caps as it should be. IT would still look good. YES?

In all the years I have rarely ever observed a good layout with upper and lower case mixed in the main line.
Walk through a supermarket and obseved those hundreds of little signs every where. Most of them are all upper case in the product name. Some have upper and lower case in the tag lines but that is rare and case specific.

Then finally. Look at what the big name sign guys are doing. They use BIG FAT copy in UPPER CASE a LOT.

 

[OldPaint]

well all i can tell ya....UPPER/LOWER CASE main line copy....is so "amature" and lacking "punch" is sad to see signs going this way.....and why do most of the NEWBIES persist on doin it? i chuckle eveytime i see someone who got a "great" price on a banner, WITH UPPER/LOWER case copy on it......i see signs i have to LOOK HARD at to read....cause its u/l case. it has its place....dont get me wrong....but in most smaller signs you will do....PUNCH is what youre after....and arial narrow lower case dont get it!!! how many OPEN.....NOW RENTING.....GRAND OPENING......HEY WE ARE HERE...sign you see in lower case? before you CUT OR PRINT you need to at least look at it both ways.....or you just keep doin ho hum signs....
like i said the placement of that sign.....would be more VISABLE in upper case....
its like a business card...in lower case....fine if its in your face or hand....distance from it.....and it all blends together.....

 

[Techman]

oh yes. "the" coulve been left off completly.. ITs almost impossible to see it in the lower pic anyway.

 

[Mark Fair]

Hey Old Paint, I beg to differ with your opinion of upper and lowercase lettering not looking good as main copy or heading.
I have used it many times with much success. It all depends on the weight of the typeface and the weight of the sub-copy.

Have a great weekend everybody!

 

[k.a.s.]

Old Paint, I also belive that you are wrong. You and techman should both look at this years portfolio in Sign Business magazine, many signs in there have upper and lower main copy and I don't think you could say any of them look bad or are not effective. There are a lot of times when all caps can be overbearing and a title case adds the right amount of negitive space to make the sign better looking with just as much readability. You are right in some cases but to say that words should ALWAYS be all caps is a little ridiculous, just my opinion.

Kevin

 

[Gino]

I’m not making excuses for OP or Techman, because I also believe that caps are better in most cases. [Is there a pun in there ??] Anyway, sometimes with the correct use of upper and lower case in the right type style, good looking, legible signs can be created. There are rules and then there are RULES. However, most rules are made to be broken and then it boils down to layout and design. Colors, type weight/strokes, kerning, negative space and the use of certain gingerbread or icons can improve layouts or ruin them. The discussion I believe is more about the majority of the time vs. all the time or hap-hazardly doing it.

I think we all agree though, for his first sign, Greece740IL [a frickin’ ‘BEEMER] did far better than most. Ha, better than some after a year or two. :Big Laugh LOL

 

[2NinerNiner2]

I'm with Mark Fair and K.A.S. ... seems this "little company" is as well

 

[OldPaint]

you all miss what iam sayin...YES....the use of lower case is nice in some signs.....YES microsoft, nike, coke, pepsi etc....are all upper/lower case....BUT THEY ARE DIFFERENT SIGNAGE and is read in both small print and large signs....
the reason a lot of cooperate stuff is in lower case....A PRINTER SET IT UP....OR DESIGNED IT.... not a sign painter/person.
you can alway tell when a sign is developed by either a PRINTER/ARCHETECT/ it will alway BE AS IF IT WAS IN PRINT!!! on a business card........all fine and dandy.....for that.....ive delt with this all my sign days....people bring me a bussiness card and say..."I WANT ITY LIKE THAT."
and most are done at OFFICE DEPOT/STAPLES/OFFICE MAX...of by some PRINTER WITH NO SIGN OR ART ABILITY.....so ifin you are in that crowd...so be it.....but again....with his sign up on a tower.....THE MORE READABLE THE BETTER....

 

[High Octane]

Hey Mark..that is some nice stuff!

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

the more time you spend developing your design skills the more tools you will have to work with as various situations arise. i sure do not have a rule to only use all caps for a business name or for the primary copy...my rule is to use what is appropriate for the situation at hand

 

[Techman]

I also belive that you are wrong. You and techman should both look at this years portfolio

Nope not wrong at all. As I said. Job specific. I beleive you should look at the portfolio again and you will see certain divisions come into play.
That is certain layouts do well using a mix. And as Mark F pointed out ground level monuments look good with the right font. And you will also see he used all caps in the contrast. So it works when used right.

But certainly not this job. It demands all uppers. So I go back to the original assesment. As a GENERAL RULE.. All caps should be used in MAIN COPY.

 

[k.a.s.]

I was not saying that you are wrong on this particular sign, I just don't agree with OP's statement that upper & lowercase is "amateur". I just felt that you guys were painting all situations with the same brush, I think there is a time & place for both. Only time and experiance will teach you when to use each.

Kevin

 

[Geary]

OP,

Let me just put it to you like it was first told to me by not only my mentor, Lloyd Vincent (of Vincent Outdoor) here in my hometown. It was articulated best by Mike Stevens and this is how he told me himself: "Upper and lower case works better especially as a headline due to the fact that the shapes of the Upper and lower case letters are immediately recognized." They went on to tell me the two main reasons....."If you lose a center of a lower case letter you can still tell what it is quicker" and, there is a rhythm to the shapes as you read them...as opposed to not as much rhythm when it's all just static upper case.

It's sort of like when people use all upper case when typing. It's hard to read and it just looks like unrecognizable shouting at first glance.

This is the actually study that was done decades and decades ago when they decided to incorporate this "immediate recognition" fact about typography to use it on all the freeway signs around the country. Furthermore, by employing a dark field (green) with white Upper and lower case lettering makes the point for immediate recognition even that much stronger. There are a few other reasons why U&L/C works best on headers for signs...but, I'll just let the others who've already expressed similar facts stand on their merit.


Greece740IL,

Not bad at all for you very first "real sign" . My only crit has been addressed: Your "The" and the bottom line of copy is way too tight to the edges, especially the sides. It should've been broght in three inches more on each side. Also, bolder type faces all around would've really made this Pop!

Again, for your first one.....Good effort!

~Gear

 

[OldPaint]

Greece740IL,
did you even try it all upper case when you where doing the layout????? and print it and then do it the way its done and put them on a wall next to each other....and walk across the room and look at it......

 

[Todd Gill]

OP...for all your ranting and raving....I gotta say I don't see much improvement in yours over the original the guy posted!?

In both cases - the font choice is poor. And colors are poor as well.

The layout itself is poor.

Sorry dude.....but you shouldn't make excuses about spending 10 minutes on it to try and cover your tush for the criticism....if you weren't going to show something decent...Ya probably shouldn't have shown anything at all. The only thing you're missing is clip art of Clint Eastwood and some "rope" font text.

Classes don't mean squat....I never had an art class till I went to college to pursue design as a career.

Honestly - - the "OLD" original design shown was the best of the lot.

Oh...and seeing where the sign goes I gotta say it probably doesn't matter how it was done....I don't see the building, but am guessing it's a doublewide mobile home. It doesn't look like there is going to be a lot of hotsy-totsy clientele dining there that care what the sign looks like.

 

[skyhigh]

KAS mentioned the contest in "Sign Business" magazine.... here is one of the signs that was featured in that issue.

Congrats Kevin..... its also a great example of upper & lower case.

 

[OldPaint]

you went to college toddi......damn......you edumacatded....ida never thunk it.........))))))))))))

 

[iSign]

you all miss what iam sayin...YES....the use of lower case is nice in some signs.....YES microsoft, nike, coke, pepsi etc....are all upper/lower case...

well.. actually, NIKE and PEPSI logos are in all caps!

 

[Ken]

Yeah, but NIKE and PEPSI are not real english words are they?
Doesn't really fit into this context.
Ken