Why the limited gamut?

[eye4clr]

Colin,

You would be wise to pay attention to what Josh is saying and ignore what Bob is saying.

Bob makes it abundantly clear that he doesn't understand color management no matter how hard he wrangles and mangles the English language in a concerted (if not pathetically comical) effort to press his point.

It goes without saying that you should get a handle on your particular equipment but to really make it do it's thing a good understanding of color management and an ICC compliant workflow is absolutely paramount.

Dan

+1

You can have obvious, if not big differences in color for different medias using solvent inks. The gamut differences between a matte banner and a high quality media like 3m 180 or Avery 1005 are significant. Direct UV systems not so much.

Modern water based ink sets can have absolutely GIGANTIC color gamuts when paired with the right media.

 

[Colin]

Well, hmmm, I respectfully suggest that it isn't helpful to ignore anyone (except young-earth creationists). :Big Laugh We all have our little collection of knowledge, and bob is going to be correct on some things, and may have some blind-spots on others. The thing that I hope we can all do is refrain from any kind of personal attacks and just follow the evidence. This does sometimes require abandoning long-held beliefs about certain things, and this is often not easy.

I have tried a bazillion different settings in both saving a B&W photo file, as well as myriad settings in VW, so I sense that I have hit a wall with that, and now it appears that working on profiles is what's next. But as Al Pacino said in that movie; Scent of a Woman: "I'm in the dark here Charlie!"

 

[bob]

Colin,

You would be wise to pay attention to what Josh is saying and ignore what Bob is saying.

Bob makes it abundantly clear that he doesn't understand color management no matter how hard he wrangles and mangles the English language in a concerted (if not pathetically comical) effort to press his point.

It goes without saying that you should get a handle on your particular equipment but to really make it do it's thing a good understanding of color management and an ICC compliant workflow is absolutely paramount.

Dan

Did it ever impinge on your smooth reptilian cortex that I might feel the way I do about color management, at least your rather stilted interpretation of it, because I do understand it, not because I do not?

Color management in my shop is getting what I want out of my equipment. My lack of interest in whether you can do the same with your gear or whether we could print the same files with the same results approaches total. That utter lack of interest extends to caring about matching what's on my monitor to my output. I'm not shipping an image on my monitor to any clients. Neither am I shipping output from your or any one else's tackle to my clients.

I know what my gear is going to do, ergo my output is completely predictable to me, which is the only one in the entire external reality that counts in these matters. It is every bit as true and vibrant as anyone else's.

Your ire seems to be stirred because I choose to get there my own way without the needless complication of worrying about compatibility with imaginary friends. You cleave to the endless minutiae of color management intended to make it possible for you to play nice with others. Been there, done that, found it functionally useless for my admittedly narrow purposes. I'm not in the least bit concerned with making nice with others printing-wise.

Most people in these waters are much like myself. They make signs and they have a printer or two to better enable them to do so. They are not running a printing business to the trade, they are not accepting image data willy nilly from anyone and everyone. Rather they are, for the most part, creating their own images to their own specifications for their own purposes.

My way may not be everyone's cup of tea but it works flawlessly for me and in doing so is every bit as valid as yours or anyone else's.

 

[Terremoto]

Well Colin, I find that Bob lumping everyone that has a grip on color management and referring to the lot as, "legions of profile and calibration obsessed dipsticks...", annoying to say the least. He is not offering a solution to your original post. In an attempt to put himself on some form of self-defined pedestal he accomplished nothing more than spewing BAD advice.

There are a couple of folks on this forum that understand color management (Josh and eye4color come immediately to mind) and many that just don't get it. Unfortunately, Bob is one that doesn't have a grasp on color management but, because he's never wrong many here think he knows what he's talking about. That's too bad!

Just saying...

Dan

 

[SE SignSupply]

Bob- I've solved your print to monitor problem!

Your using a Mutoh Valuejet printer...

I would have given up too. Now I understand your inner pain and frustrations about only needing 2 profiles. It's like I'm seeing a whole new side of you. My apologies.

I have not read all of the info in this thread, but this caught my eye. What's wrong with the Valuejet line?

 

[rjssigns]

Ummm... maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone mention using the Preserve Spot Color in Versa. You have to make sure you have a pure black and white(grayscale) image done in PS or Ai. Import into Versa then click the Preserve Spot Color command. This will cause the printer to use only black.

As far as getting odd colors in black the simple answer is ink percentages. Versa will look to get around 150% ink on the material and even though you have only K in your art it will add the other colors to get to that percentage. No matter how much you tell it not to.

BTW you can start with a pure grayscale then render effects in PS and all bets are off. We ended up creating a profile called Ed's Wrap for a partial wrap our shop created. No fun whatsoever, but now we have it dialed.

 

[GAC05]

One thing you can say about Bob"s posts, they are well color managed - absolute black and white with no gray areas....

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Colin]

Ummm... maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone mention using the Preserve Spot Color in Versa. You have to make sure you have a pure black and white(grayscale) image done in PS or Ai. Import into Versa then click the Preserve Spot Color command. This will cause the printer to use only black.

Yes, I clicked that option on and off on every setting combo possible. I also tried the "grayscale" setting in PS, and it just doesn't work. The print (when using the K channel only) is too brown and grainy. Even Roland themselves admit that it will be more grainy, and to print at a higher resolution (which doesn't cure the problem though).

With my current profile(s), the printer simply will not produce a satisfactory B&W. It's on to custom profiles I suppose, but I am illiterate with all of that.

 

[Colin]

Wait! Did you not mean "Preserve Primary Colors" in VW?

 

[Terremoto]

Like I said Bob, "You don't have a clue about color management!"

Your methodology is nothing more than a duct tape and haywire work-a-round. Please don't call it "color management". It's not!

I'll patiently await your overly verbose response but I'm sure not holding out any hope that there might be some form of enlightenment buried in there somewhere. I think you just like to see your words up there on your wide-screen monitor for nothing more than self gratification.

Frankly, I find you nothing but a blowhard pain in the posterior who offers little in the way of solid advice to those posting their questions here. Of course that's my opinion. I'm sure your opinion of yourself would differ somewhat.

Dan

 

[JoshLoring]

Colin- how many computers do you have? Is your rip pc seperate from your design PC?
I might be able to goto meeting into your comps and calibrate/install profiles if your down.
Just need to get over this nasty flu!!

 

[Colin]

Colin- how many computers do you have? Is your rip pc seperate from your design PC?

Over the last 6 months I've pro-actively weaned myself off of my old XP machine and over to a new Win7 Pro 64-bit machine, which is where I now live. It has new Adobe CS5.5 suite, CorelDraw X5, and up-to-date VersaWorks. The old XP is still hooked up via a KVM switch, but it's getting turned on less & less as time goes by. My new 'puter is my design and RIP.

 

[bob]

Like I said Bob, "You don't have a clue about color management!"

Your methodology is nothing more than a duct tape and haywire work-a-round. Please don't call it "color management". It's not!...

...merciful deletia...

I'm not working around anything except perhaps egregious orthodoxy. I never said it was color management, I said it was the way I did it which has served my needs for lo these many years.

But Ok sport, go ahead and explain in simple declarative sentences exactly what benefits would accrue to me should my process be made ICC compliant.

Tell me what you think I'm missing. Be specific and do not equivocate.

 

[Terremoto]

I never said it was color management, I said it was the way I did it which has served my needs for lo these many years.

But in a previous post to this thread you do say:

Color management in my shop is getting what I want out of my equipment.

So what is it Bob?

But Ok sport, go ahead and explain in simple declarative sentences exactly what benefits would accrue to me should my process be made ICC compliant.

Tell me what you think I'm missing. Be specific and do not equivocate.

Sorry Bob but I'm not going to waste my time. It's abundantly clear that you have already determined you're so right that even if you're wrong you're right so what could I possibly contribute to that?

Let me tell you something Bob. When I was much younger I delighted in the use of verbose and somewhat superfluous prose in much the same way you do now. While attempting to impress a couple of young ladies with my superior language skills one of the young ladies chimed in with, "I know a couple of big words too!"

Being a blond lass I was curious as to what big words she might have knowledge of so I asked her, "And what might those two words be?"

She looked me straight in the eye and with a hint of disdain said, "Pachyderm excrement!"

I am a tad older and much wiser now.

Oh, and by the way, I'm not really much of a "sport" so don't be too disappointed if I refuse to participate in your silly little jousting games!

Dan

 

[ProWraps]

blonde lass named dan. must be an east coast thing. (sorry just re-read. your dangaling modifier lead me in a different direction)

bob is bob. the irony of his profile is that he says he is from "earth". i find that quite funny as i would think that couldnt be farther from the truth nor the destination.

obviously no matter what his age, he has invested many dollars and years in a very complete and verbose thesaurus set.

good on him. although i do find his sense of humor or lack of it quite interesting and a good read, i also feel that the holes are begining to show in a world that he is no longer, or/nor ever/never was/is relevant.


i spent much money on the backslash key. and im from earth too.

 

[Terremoto]

blonde lass named dan. must be an east coast thing. (sorry just re-read. your dangaling modifier lead me in a different direction)

LOL. Good eye, or should I say eyes?

Being from the west I would have to agree that it might be an east coast thing.

I know that blond left me dangling whereupon I gathered my wits and promptly headed off in a different direction.

Dan

 

[randya]

Probably not the ink.

I hear the peanut gallery endlessly insisting that aqueous inks are ever so superior to solvent inks. Perhaps so but I've yet to see any noticeable difference, assuming that both printers are being operated by people who know and understand the machines they're wrangling as well as using like media.

Cyan is cyan, Magenta is magenta, yellow is yellow, and black is black regardless if they are water, solvent, or mayonnaise based.

...

Probably IS the ink.

Different inks have different gamuts.
Cyan is not necessarily cyan.
Cyan in the Epson inkset used by Mutoh, Roland and Mimaki is much more 'blue' than 'cyan'. (looking at a Pantone chart).

Virtually all ink sets have different gamuts.
Dyes can be much 'brighter' than pigments.
Some of this limited by chemistry, some by costs.

Digital print inks are rarely, if ever, just "CMYK".


A profile is a calibration between the printer and media with the choosen ink.

A variety of media (and media coatings) have different absorbancy and adsorbancy rates. (too much ink and you can get mottling (pigment coagulation, too little ink for the media and you loose gamut).

These are controlled by the Profile.

That being said, one can usually 'design' around the output of the printer, and is probably the most common method of 'color management' that I see.

B&W are difficult with 4 color digital for a couple of reasons.

There is no grey, so grey is made up of CMYK.
So it is not so easy to get a neutral grey.
Typically, you will see a magenta or cyan hue (or both) if the levels of those inks are not perfect.
A good profile can help tremendously.

Metamerism, some inks will have a hue shift depending on the lighting.

 

[Custom_Grafx]

http://www.rolanddga.com/training/webinar/archive/video_25.asp

 

[Colin]

B&W are difficult with 4 color digital for a couple of reasons.

There is no grey, so grey is made up of CMYK.
So it is not so easy to get a neutral grey.

Actually, if you apply K100 to a "grayscale" saved photo (in Illy), and then save the photo as an eps, and then select "US PrePress" under "Color Management" in VW, it will use the K channel only (no mixing of CMY). Alternatively, you can also use Roland spot color BK21A and then select "Density Control Only" in VW for the employment of the K only.

There will still be other factors which will play a roll in the final outcome, like the white value of the media etc, but one can avoid the use of CMY in creating B&W prints.

Unfortunately for me, I am still getting what appears to be fine banding due to what is possibly a nozzle issue. I'm still noodling with various feed settings. Gah!

 

[Terremoto]

Probably IS the ink.

Different inks have different gamuts.
Cyan is not necessarily cyan.
Cyan in the Epson inkset used by Mutoh, Roland and Mimaki is much more 'blue' than 'cyan'. (looking at a Pantone chart).

Virtually all ink sets have different gamuts.
Dyes can be much 'brighter' than pigments.
Some of this limited by chemistry, some by costs.

Digital print inks are rarely, if ever, just "CMYK".


A profile is a calibration between the printer and media with the choosen ink.

A variety of media (and media coatings) have different absorbancy and adsorbancy rates. (too much ink and you can get mottling (pigment coagulation, too little ink for the media and you loose gamut).

These are controlled by the Profile.

That being said, one can usually 'design' around the output of the printer, and is probably the most common method of 'color management' that I see.

B&W are difficult with 4 color digital for a couple of reasons.

There is no grey, so grey is made up of CMYK.
So it is not so easy to get a neutral grey.
Typically, you will see a magenta or cyan hue (or both) if the levels of those inks are not perfect.
A good profile can help tremendously.

Metamerism, some inks will have a hue shift depending on the lighting.

+1 to that!

CMYK is NOT a standard. Printer (and ink) manufacturers are not constrained by any formula or standard to produce their inks in any kind of predetermined fashion.

A properly linearized printer and an ICC compliant workflow does wonders for consistent wide format digital output. Throw proper profiles in there as well. Anything else is just a workaround.

Dan