Bending Over Backward for Customers

[pchronotron]

Let me just make this clear I posted this thread to get perspective on my current situation. I appreciate all the input I've been given, even the contrary ones. Perhaps someone could tell me what the norm is? The previous poster insinuated my designs aren't very good. I really have no idea how good a layout should be considering the time invested.

I spent about 5 hours on the christmas greetings signs including time spent making the the custom graphics including several graphics that were ultimately rejected before the final proof. I had a deadline of 1 work day and I was still responsible for my normal duties.

The second is a design I probably spent 45 minutes to an hour on start to finish including the custom illustration.

Can any one give me an idea of what I ought to be producing at this pace?

 

[Gino]

pchro......

You don't need to convince me or anyone else here. It's your boss with whom you're having your problems.

If I had an employee on this forum as much as you've been today.... and then has the gall to say he doesn't have the time to get things done... I'd smack 'em. If he opened his mouth... I'd fire his butt.

You've spent more time complaining and talking about problems that I really don't see as problems, except from possibly your boss's stand point.

Again, don't take this wrong... you can go on making excuses for your own shortcomings, but to word them in a fashion to bamboozle anyone here is just not fair. It only takes a few seconds to read through what's going on here and it doesn't take much to get others to feel sorry for you. Your boss could be a total jerk and lousy at his business, but you haven't shown anything to back up your credentials design-wise or work ethic-wise. We're here talking about you and only you. Why should I or anyone else here believe what a fuddy-duddy your boss is by your words ?? Get him on here and let him prove what he's all about and maybe we'll see the the other side and then from your view and his.... we'll be able to figure out what's really happening.

The old story of it takes two to tango really has merit. You wanna make him out to be this monster... go right ahead, but this is nothing more than the old disgruntled, poorly misunderstood creative artist, that needs a better paying job because he/she is being taken advantage of and upper management won't see things your way.

How many times do you think we all have heard this load of crap ?? Just different names, different places and new contestants, but the same ol' same ol'.

Many people are being kind to you, but if kindness is all you're after, I'll stop responding, but if you're looking for guidance read through all of it and stop making up excuses for yourself. Man up. ​

.

 

[Billct2]

Since I'm the insinuator let me first say that, yes you produced designs that look like clipart...so why not use clipart? I thought it was clipart (that's a compliment)
It's not a $1500 logo design it's a few greeting cards.
You have illustration skills, but your graphic/sign design/layout skills are lacking.
I have almost zero ability to do original illustrations so I admire anyone who has that skill,
but I do know how to produce a professional legible design, often using clipart.
So to answer the question...
QUOTE]Can any one give me an idea of what I ought to be producing at this pace? [/QUOTE
Those cards could have taken about 15 minutes each with stock images, and you could have spent an extra 5 minutes selecting and laying out decent text.

 

[pchronotron]

Gino, the implication that I don't work diligently is insulting. I made 2 posts on my break and had to take 2 split 45 minutes and odd times for lunch today to cover the phones. I do value your perspective on this though. I would actually like someone to just tell what level I am meant to be at.

 

[iSign]

I can appreciate the position owners in that their hourly paid employees will never feel the sting of coming up short for the bills. But at the same time I'm just as invested in being employed as they are in turning a profit.

You're joking right?

...people here are taking time to help you see both sides, & I can bet those of us who are now employers, were already in your shoes as employees... so we know both sides. You don't...

...correcting those helping you makes us stop wasting time helping.

Good luck


By the way, do you realize that when you have All About Signs & San Angelo, Texas in your profile, your boss could be testing his search engine rankings & stumble on this thread... it wouldn't be the furst time we've seen that either!

 

[Gino]

Gino, the implication that I don't work diligently is insulting. I made 2 posts on my break and had to take 2 split 45 minutes and odd times for lunch today to cover the phones. I do value your perspective on this though. I would actually like someone to just tell what level I am meant to be at.

Get off it.... you're not insulted.... just found out. You've been on here from 11am until recently and spread all over in between about this one thread. I see that as not only NOT doing your job, but robbing your boss of time he's paying you to do company things. While on the clock, you could be filing, ripping or doing some of those things he wants you to do.

Now, I will take back some of what I've said..... if you tell me your boss knows you're on here complaining about him and not collecting information as how to cut reflective vinyl or load a particular media into your machine. Otherwise, I'd still smack ya.

You wanna know how good you are. I don't think we're a panel for judging your work or work ethics, but I would go so far as to say.... you're probably a good employee and possibly very helpful. However, you have your priorities and job title a little mixed up.

You haven't displayed anything other then contempt for your boss and that isn't a good foundation to stay at your current place of employment. I would start putting your resume out there and start looking for another job... because it's just a matter of time before you two lock horns and by the sound of your side.... he won't like it.

Get away while you still know it all and before he has a chance to ruin you. You have lots of answers, but lack confidence in yourself. There must be a reason for this. Do you think you could figure it out on your own ??

 

[RebeckaR]

I'm going to echo a bit what BillCt2 said previously.
You have decent illustrative skills and so so design skills.

You could speed up your layout/production time tremendously by getting your boss to invest in some good quality clipart.
I can draw and cartoon and all that stuff, but for an item that I'm just knocking out for someone who does not want to pay an hourly design fee I fall back on stock images and good ol' clipart.

Use your OFF time to build a portfolio of images that you might use in your day to day work and sell them. Maybe your boss will buy a copy too.

 

[Pat Whatley]

Okay, I'll be the guy....take this for what it's worth:

The layouts for the Christmas signs would never have made it out of our shop. They're entry level work, at best. You really need to hone your skill level, and especially your speed, if you're planning on making a living as a designer. $10 an hour seems fair, really, at the level you're at right now. Look at your current job as paid training while you make yourself better. Constantly focus on improving, you'll gradually get to a level where you can command more income. Your design skills, right now, are nothing that your boss can sell. Increase your abilities until they become a selling point to customers and you'll be able to name your price.

More importantly you are an employee. If your boss tells you to drop what you're doing and spend five hours hooking up one of his buddies you're expected to do it. He wasn't asking you to do anything outside the realm of the job you're hired to do. The jobs that were put off are his problem, not yours. You are responsible for doing the job he asks you to do, he is responsible for writing you a paycheck. That's it.

 

[MachServTech]

I wish I had :signs101:when I was starting out
and

:Welcome:

 

[1leonchen]

i know how u feel. i have been through worse.

how about print,cut,laminate,install,weed,deliver,hardware store carry home designs. do them and at the end of the day your boss tells u he cant allow u a 50 cent raise and company vehicle are not for lunch.even though every one drives home a vehicle except you: and when he leaves a job for a month comes three hours before dead line. and says it has to be done. working over time is not a option. i havent even begun.
save your pennies buy some epquiment and try for your self!

 

[SignManiac]

Based on your design examples I would have to say you are doing well to make $10.00 an hour. I agree with both Bill2ct2 and Pat Whatley on their assessments.

You would have to improve your layout skills and the time it takes you to produce them if you were working for me. I pay my guys more but they never, ever complain and will do anything I ask of them and they're happy to work here and often tell me that they appreciate their jobs. It may just be that your employer has some valid complaints as well. There is always two sides to the story in the workplace most times.

 

[Edserv]

We came up with (what we think) is a systemized process for acquiring art information. It's a 3 page outline that tries to "get inside the head" of our client. It worked really well on the first 10 clients. Our goal is to "bundle" all the info to present to our designers.

If our designer is missing anything from the "bundle," he or his team "freezes it." We're trying to make every process objective.

I'd be happy to email you a "fact-finder" we use if you're interested.

It really helps.

thanks,
chris
Lets Go Banners

 

[Biker Scout]

I've been in your shoes... worked my ass off for 8 years in a little print shop in a small town. But you know what, I made $23.50 an hour. But I was worth it to the company. Main reason, was I could produce. And Fast. Miracles are my specialty. The owners were definitely lacking in the "How to Run a Business" department, and was my main gripe and frustration. There just wasn't enough hours in the day to get things done.

Finally I went to them and said, "If you expect me to get things done, but don't want to pay the overtime, put me on salary, and I'll shut up and make sure the work gets done." (Hence the $23.50) I didn't start out there, but when I came on board, I was already proficient at everything they had in the shop and then some. I was productive from day one and earned my keep, and their trust.

But you know what... it took me 10 years of working in the trenches and working s***ty page monkey, go'fer jobs before I actually learned anything and had the confidence to walk in any employer's office and demand what I'm worth today. I now get $80 per hour, and I can't beat the clients off with a stick. But it takes years of hard work and putting your head down and sticking to a clear plan/goal of what you want out of life and a career. Right now you have a job... not a career. And let me tell you, there are very few "Designers" who actually make any real money. It's a thankless job that oftentimes requires them to do things that are outside of their job description. And believe me, I know exactly what you are talking about when you say you can't be creative after just finishing up a bunch of analytical work. It's nearly impossible at times to have any clarity and inspiration to move clipart around the page so it looks nice. But that's the job.

You've not been in the industry long enough to be this overwhelmed with your duties. If you feel that you are, then you've not cut your teeth enough. I'd seriously suggest working at a newspaper. YOU WILL GET FAST. The work sucks, it's all clipart, but you learn to become a master craftsman with your limited toolbox. I've worked every side of the graphics industry, and the signage side is definitely an odd duck. But it's the one that I think I like the best, and have started my own business within the field, although primarily focusing on High End Design.

As for your submissions, well, I'd not hire you. Not for $10 an hour. It's not the use of clipart or whatever it is... it's your layout execution, and time spent. I'm as ADHD as they come, but I can knock out stuff like that in a fraction of the time if called to do so. You see, I learned a few tricks long ago... incidently at one of my newspaper jobs... then all of a sudden design and layout just clicked. You need to learn the difference between a "Production Artist" and a "Graphic Designer". Graphic Designers get to charge $80 to $250 an hour. Take all week or month on a single project and then turn around and bill the client for $5000 for a red dot on a white page.

A Production Artist comes armed with a toolbox of tricks and tips to get to the output stage as fast a possible with minimal fuss. You know where to look for clipart, stock photos, how to edit and manipulate files, and crappy artwork. Taking someone's crap Publisher file and still getting it to film or output. How to use fonts effectively to convey your message, especially when given no clear direction or artwork guidelines. You knock it out and move on to the next project. Sometimes copying and pasting from a previous job.

Not everything you work on is going to be a portfolio piece, nor should it be given the time constraints to get the job out. The skill comes in from experience. Eventually you'll "get it" design wise and you can make all your stuff look exceptionally well, even though you only put a half an hour into it. It will come, if you really want to be in this field, and you study. Read design magazines, the best is Before & After. It's design college in a book.

But if you are entertaining the notion of going out on your own and to start your own whatever in design... don't. If you think you are overwhelmed now, just wait... it gets worse and you never get paid. READ THE BOOK "E-MYTH" BEFORE YOU EVEN GET THE INKLING OF AN IDEA OF ENTREPRENEURSHIP!!! (Technical and Artistic People should shy away from going into business for themselves.... know where the term "Starving Artist" comes from?) My business almost flopped this year, and I'm damn good at what I do. However, I suck at running a business. I was forced to bring in a partner who knew business inside and out. I was overwhelmed with wearing all the hats, and no time to be creative or actually design anything... once again, it was like my previous employ. However, I had no one else to blame but myself.

If you get nothing else out of my blob of gray type, buy those two books. It will make a world of difference in your perspective. In design as well as business.

(Oh, and move to a real metropolitan area where wages are slightly higher) Out here we have a burger joint called In & Out Burger. You may have heard of it... well they all make $15 an hour there, no matter what large or small town they are in. Technically you can live in an area that doesn't have that high of a cost of living, and still make OK money flipping burgers.

It's better to make more money doing remedial labor sometimes than to be unhappy in a field of your choice/desire.

Good Luck!

 

[SignManiac]

Biker that was a most excellent post! and exactly on point.

 

[Marlene]

The second is a design I probably spent 45 minutes to an hour on start to finish including the custom illustration.

Can any one give me an idea of what I ought to be producing at this pace?

creative work does not have a time line. I have spent under 1/2 hour on some of my best stuff as the flow was there and I just went with it. I have also spent countless hours on stuff that I consider crap. you can't really say for sure how long something will take to do. you can estimate setting type for something like a menu board or jobs like that, but the really creative stuff comes as it comes.

as far as files that you can't work with and your boss being a pain saying that he doesn't want to have any guidelines for files just shows that your boss isn't much of a pro in the design side of the business. he hired you for that and part of your job is to make it clear that he can have his "the custoemr is always right" but when it comes to files and file formats, the computer doesn't care about that and you need to make that clear. explain that when a customer sends a file that needs adjustment, you have to be able to make those adjustments. either come up with guidelines or pony up for programs that you can work these files in. isn't he paying you to know these things???? an owner can't do everything and know everything, and that's why they hire people in who do.

 

[Checkers]

Wow, a lot of great comments here!
As the saying goes...

"We the unwilling, led by the unqualified, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful."

Oh, and welcome to the sign industry.

Checkers

 

[Dice]

Pchrono, don't defend yourself, you'll end up loosing on here and you won't achieve your objectives when you posted.

From what it sounds like, you are frustrated with your employers. Your feeling that you could be more efficient, more effective, more valuable to your employers if they only understood what you go through each day. You are being asked to go out of your job description and be the end all solution in your company.

What most people are saying on here is this is common. Many Sign Shop owners don't know or don't care about the details of running the shop. They are more concerned about the bottom line. More concerned about bringing in the sales so you have a paycheck at the end of the week.

So what do you do? That depends on you and your Boss. The critical factor is to always be positive. Do not whine about things. We owners hate whiners and will get ride of them when the opportunity presents itself. Do it in a positive way. Come up with a list of improvements and recommendations that you believe will make you more effective. List them up, type them up. When your armed with these you'll be ready to discuss them with your boss.

Now just don't throw them in his / her face. Email or say something along the lines of:

"Hey Boss, I've come up with a list of simple things that i believe we could do to increase efficiencies that way i can make more money for you." "Can i have 15 minutes of your time, what is a good time to talk?"

I can guarantee that if you include the part about making more money for them, he'll listen.

 

[Carolina Girl]

All I want to say is talk to your boss about your complaints and let us know what happens, I'm curious or maybe when he presents you with a project that cannot fit into your work load; just ask him which other current project does he want to put behind in order to do this one. You could also offer outsourcing solutions to your boss to ease the work load on the shop. My thoughts are either talk to your boss or be quiet and work, I know that sounds rude (sorry bout that) but we can't solve your situation for you; we can just give you advice and without action on your part then our advice is useless.

Otherwise; the only option is to keep moving forward and wait for better times. All of us posting have many different opinions based on our own experiences, you need to decide the best route for you and take it. Don't look at what your friends make, or what Starbucks pays (though I do love their coffee); but look at your own situation and create a new path towards your goal. Sure there will be hard times as well as good times in fulfilling your goal, but at least you'll be headed in the direction you chose.

 

[Rick]

Good Post Biker Scout!

Looking back, I have been a grunt, toilet scrubber, cleaned hopelessly clogged airbrushes, washed the bosses car... one time the boss ran out of gas, he took my car to a meeting while I walked with a gas can and retrieved his truck a couple of miles away!

Moving up the sign design food chain, there is a steep level of responsibility in the middle. You are expected to run the plotter, router, design, know the code(s) maybe do some weeding/light install or might be responsible for keeping 5-20 fabrication/installers busy all day, everyday. Some of us are really good at the production end, and it is fun to go at that pace. I kinda miss it sometimes.... sometimes.

I had one job at a vehicle graphics shop... doing wraps 13 years ago was no walk in the park, 1/2 hour save times, that Photoshop wheel spinning for 5 minutes with every minor tweak, spooling for 8 hours. Technology then was not up to the task and I was a computer design newbie. I had to figure out how to open mac files or the odd files back then and forget having .pdf. I just found a vendor to convert them or did a work around. I had 3 computers to use, had to know Flexi, Cas-mate, Gerber and Corel, the cutters were constantly going, I was doing 5-10 layouts a day or converting old paper pattern files to vinyl files on slow times... and it never slowed there. Ran a printer, the edge, 2 plotters, set up silk screen and print files. But I also did not know any better. When I worked at one shop, the pace was super fast, I just adapted... for now you have to adapt. I went from 6.50 an hour to 11 an hour in 9 months and was offered $15.00 an hour when I turned in my notice. I left that job to get into an architectural sign job. By that time I learned to be really fast, but this place was very slow. I replaced 2 people there by the time I left and they probably could have canned the other designer. It was probably not because I was fast, it was because the employees did not know any better about speed production and the boss realized they were too slow.

Again the question is... where do you want to be? and is this place going to help you get there?

When I first started out this was pre computer. I wanted to be an Disney Imagineer. My first design job was for an original Imagineer. Can't get any better start than that. He burst my bubble when he told me that would may be a good career move. He had many reasons but I had to find a way to get to that level. It made it harder when I dropped out of school but I ended up working on Disney, Warner Bros and themed environments projects, but I found another way to get there, and I got there working for production shops like the one you are working for.

Lets take the cards you are showing.... I would not show those cards to anyone. I want to see your best work, not the crappy, quickie work. I can't remember back far enough on how I would have done it with 4 years of experience but I know I would have designed it the bosses way, taken it home and designed it my way, showed him and said if you want it, I get overtime or paid for the time I put into it. If he did not do it, I still had a nice portfolio piece to show for the next job. When you are a production monkey and stepping up to a real designer you have to start thinking of the next job. You do the best you can where you are at now so when you leave, the boss will feel the sting. You really want to leave a big gaping hole. That means you were worth something. You can be replaced and you will be replaced, but make them feel it now by putting your head down, cranking out the work and while you are doing it, plan for your next job.

Oh and a warning... and I am thinking a few ex production monkeys have the same problem. Be careful of what you ask for, there is this cruel joke that may be played on you called over-qualification. At some point, you might have no choice but to work for yourself.

Again, I want to see your best work...

 

[MachServTech]

Again, I want to see your best work...