Give Up Hire a Professional

[CES020]

Just to add a point, there's a college here, 30,000 students. Graphics Arts is a major staple in that school. Kids drop $10,000-15,000 per year for 4 years to learn graphic arts. I suppose we could stop them all from day one by seeing 2 things they drew over 3 weeks and tell them all to quit now, you don't have the skills.

It those kids can get 4 years to learn it, with no job, just studying every day, then I think many of us deserve a little space on the design front when we're trying to learn while operating a business.

And Gino, I don't have to ask which books, etc. It's already here, and I own a number of them because they were recommended by talented people to help me, which they have.

 

[Bigdawg]

to save space deleted so I could comment on this part

My personal belief is to try not to discourage anyone from trying to learn anything. If their work is sub-standard, the market will sort them out.

Interesting to me that the people most of us hold to high levels on this forum, on the design side, are rarely, if ever, the ones to tell people that are trying, to give it up. They are most always the most generous with their offerings.

I agree with you. I just don't comment too much any more when I don't feel like the initial effort shows any kind of eye for appealing layout. Now there's been times I've been surprised and as the design progresses I see they are getting it... but that is the exception - not the rule.

Personally I don't want to discourage anyone from trying. But I come from a very strong marketing background that tells me you want your company to look its' best. So I don't think the place to learn design is on your own logo.

Now having said all of that... the logo for the company I work at makes me cringe. It's horrible and my boss (who doesn't see anything wrong with it - he designed it) still doesn't see it as a poor reflection of what we can do. I've spent three years and many not-to-subtle hints trying to make him understand and he honestly think it looks good... he also can't see color shifts in prints or any of the other things I do - and he tries to.

I may never win the company logo battle - but he pretty much always defers to me on the design because he knows what he can't see - and trusts me to see it for him.

 

[SignManiac]

I still stand by my opinion. I gave honest, constructive advice, intent on helping the OP by saving him valuable time and hoping his business would benefit more with a professionally designed logo. I never once said it sucked nor would I. I in no way was sitting on my high horse. I for one have lost count of the number of logo's I have taken time to offer up to help teach by example. So don't pigeon hole me into being a sign snob. I enjoy helping those who I think can learn but this case didn't even have a starting point. It needed to go back to the drawing board as was said by others.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Maybe Gino's example will never translate perfectly, but to me, your version is no more accurate, because a teacher is being paid to teach...

That was the only way to make the teacher analogy translate to this particular situation.

Some where saying just go hire a professional. Not really saying, brush up on your color wheel, go brush up on art theory etc. That would be like a teacher telling a student to learn their tables.

I believe that people come to these forums more often then not to learn something(be it design, problem with printer or whatever), some make great connections that extend beyond that, but I do believe(no basis other then just what I've seen) most come on here to learn, thus making the old timers the "teachers" based on their experience.

Technically speaking, I guess one could say that when someone says bluntly "hire a professional" that is learning something if you get the hint, however, that really doesn't say what it wrong. A little direction goes a long way, if they are able to pick it up. I'm not saying do the whole design for them by any means, somepeople do because it's easier for them to communicate their idea, but just a little direction. Then if their next draft shows a good move in the right direction, maybe a little more, if they are totally off base with the second and third draft then I could see a more "forceful" might see the help of someone else.

I'm sure that some won't word it that way as they have different personality then I do, whatever fits your personality.

I guess I just believe in giving someone more then one shot before I suggest that they throw in the towel. Some times they only get one shot and they should only have one shot, but when they are trying to seek direction from other people, I think at least one shot after been giving some direction wouldn't hurt, but that's me.

 

[CES020]

Gino, I don't recall seeing anyone with a printer question be told "You'll never understand color matching, sub your print work out". There seems to be a double standard on the design side. If someone needs help with their printer because they just bought it because they thought it would be a good idea to open a sign shop on the side, people take countless hours explaining color profiles, setting things up, working through things. Doesn't seem to be any problem.

Yet the design side comes, someone asks for help, and they are an idiot.

All I ask for is consistency.

I'm curious how any post can "slow the forum down". Too simple a question for you, here's a concept, don't respond to it. Got some "fast moving topic" (whatever that would be), then jump in and type away. No one post is going to change the dynamic of the entire forum.

99% of the posts I see that say "hire a professional" are not you Gino, or most of the other "old timers" as you put it. It's mostly one liners, puked up by someone that wasn't willing to offer any advice at all, just trying to throw a zinger out there to get a dig in. It's not like they are trying to help at all, then getting a point and saying "I've done all I can do, you need to hire someone", it's just the one liner and gone.

So my comments are directed at you, or any specific "old timers" because I don't think it's any of you that are doing it.

 

[Deaton Design]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, a very old quote, there is no truer statement when applied to design.
What you may think is the greatest work of art you have ever produced, when viewed by a professional, turns out to be a piece of junk in their eyes. I dont think design is something that can be learned if the talent isnt already there. Definitely, practice will make you better, but again, if the talent isnt there, its going to look amatuerish, no matter what you do. Signmaking used to be done by doing thumbnail sketches with a pencil, then a finished drawing, pounced and lettered on whatever substrate was used.
Nowadays, its just about all done by computer, which is a fantastic tool in the right hands, but another story in the wrong hands. I know people that can run circles around me with a computer, but tell them to design something in illustrator, corel, flexi, they are lost. You have to look at it like this, if you bought a sign system, vinyl, design programs and start making signs, you are not a designer. You are a person who bought this stuff and started making signs. The design skills were not a part of that package. If that talent is there, and you work at it, no doubt you will start turning out some great stuff, in everyones eyes. But if its isnt there, no matter how many hours you spend at the computer, it wont get much better. Putting your stuff up here will get you the truth. I cringe at the comments some make, and if Im not busy, Ill try and throw something out there that I hope will help. But even those comments, no matter how bad they are, usually are pretty close to being spot on. Take a look at some good designers work, see how it looks next to your work, and you will see what I mean.
Edited to say, Im not trying to discourage anyone here on what they do. Just know your limitations. I know that I know mine.

 

[iSign]

I'll take a different view then. I think it's a cop out to tell someone that's asked for help to "hire a professional". I think that's a crap attitude for the most part. My guess is all that say that are people that were born with design talent and never had anyone teach them a single thing in their entire profession.

dude..
I think we've banged heads a year or two ago, because I'm blunt, outspoken & maybe a bit of an asshole at times.. but also because I guess you posted freely whatever the hell you were thinking or doing, and it resulted in whatever I felt like thinking or saying being offensive to you...

...at which you commented that you thought I looked for your posts just to give you a hard time... hmm... and then I think I made a point to help you on something, as well as apologizing for your incorrect perception that I harbored any animosity toward you... and there have been no further conflicts for quite some time... that was you, right? ..or maybe one of the other dozen rocky friendships I've built in the same manner here

honestly, i love all the friendships Ive developed here, but i don't come here to make friends.. I come to learn sometimes, i come to hang out.. to read... to write, to be entertained... I come to interact with the world in here, when I'm not actually going out the door to interact with the world out there... but MY idea of interacting with the world is to see what grabs my attention, feel or conceptualize what response I am tempted to offer in return, and maybe on a good day, pause for an extra second to double check if i really need to, or ought to offer up that response... and (for those who know me) an "extra second" is usually not enough & I just blurt out whatever is on my mind...

to my credit (at least in my own mind) I'm basically a good guy, not a malicious & accusatory thug, maybe a combative & marginally aggressive thug at times... but usually over an issue up for discussion, not a person...

....and a hot debate can be part of how opinions are formed & sometimes even changed.. within myself, my oppressors, my targets, and in the minds of innocent bystanders even, just as my own values & beliefs are challenged, verified or even modified by debates I am an innocent bystander to...

..so.. dude.. I'm tired of this incessant policing lately, of the way others choose to treat their fellow members around here..

...if the only opinion you have to offer in exercising your rightful privilege to share your opinion around here, is to denounce the manner in which others should exercise their rightful privilege to share their opinions...

then dude... start your own forum... hell, you could even call it "Thin Skin Armour"... and you could be the white knight that protects to fair maidens (man woman or otherwise) of bad design from the oppressive freewheelin' opinions of all them hard core design thugs at Signs101!!

 

[Gino]

Just to add a point, there's a college here, 30,000 students. Graphics Arts is a major staple in that school. Kids drop $10,000-15,000 per year for 4 years to learn graphic arts. I suppose we could stop them all from day one by seeing 2 things they drew over 3 weeks and tell them all to quit now, you don't have the skills.

It those kids can get 4 years to learn it, with no job, just studying every day, then I think many of us deserve a little space on the design front when we're trying to learn while operating a business.

And Gino, I don't have to ask which books, etc. It's already here, and I own a number of them because they were recommended by talented people to help me, which they have.

I never was talking about you. You evidently went about it the adult way and continue to learn as we all continue to learn here on this site and in our own towns among our local shops. You just happened to be the one asking and making suggestions on these matters.

A long time ago in our shop, about 20 years ago... I made an assessment of a problem. I nonchalantly said something to the guy and later he must've mentioned it to one of the other guys in the shop. Well, the other guy [not the one that was supposed to hear this] came to me and started drilling me. I tried to keep my voice down and kept saying, Kevin, don't go there..... Kevin, don't go there..... Well, he pressed on and his voice got louder and louder until everyone's ears were now listening. He then said, now what do you mean by that. Well, I said, you asked for it, not me. I said aloud what he was point blank asking me and it embarrassed the other guy to no end. I took Kevin outside and told him if he ever backs me into a corner like that again, where I have to embarrass someone because of your big frickin' mouth.... I'll kick your frickin' ass all the way home. He knew I meant it.

I will never call someone on the carpets, unless I'm provoked needlessly.

So please, don't get confused and think you're the target. Sometimes these things are said in general or for other ears.
​

 

[ForgeInc]

"....I see it has sparked some honest answers and some answers from a Newbie that is a bit pretentious.

Unnamed Newbie believes he can sort out children that are going to be artists or not by their scribbles with a Crayon. Seems to be a prevailing attitude around here."

Pretty sure this was directed at me. Now, I don't want to override the thread for a dumb pissing match, but you might want to know a little more about who you are calling a "newbie". In regards to this forum, yes...I AM a newbie. I don't even know how to quote your earlier reply. I came to this site a few months ago and have been lurking for a while, reading up on equipment, techniques, etc...while I start a new phase of my career opening a production/design shop. I have gained valuable insight and am grateful the site exists, it seems to be the best one around so that's why I joined.

I don't think my advice was worded harshly when I said "hire a professional". Blunt? Yes. Good advice? Yes. I started in this business when I was in high school, drawing signs by hand for grocery stores. Once laser printers came around, that died out so I worked at a vinyl shop through art college. Then I went to design school for four years, did an apprenticeship at a rather large company, got hired as a graphic designer for said company, and have been freelancing doing design for the last 14 years. All in all, 20 years of design under my belt.

I'm not saying this to be pretentious, far from it. I actually think that amongst many of my peers I've worked with over the years I am really quite average. But it's all relative.

What I CAN say, is that when I look at a logo after having been in this business for 20 years, yeah...I think I know pretty quickly what someone's abilities are. Adtechia, maybe this is a bit of a sore subject for you, because I seem to recall a similar thread you started and you actually DID hire someone who drew something up for you?

I say: GOOD! Because that piece of crap was going no where, no matter how many times you tried to spin it.

Sorry to all who got caught up in this long winded post - had to get that off my chest. I'll refrain from posts like this in the future and will try to be more constructive (or silent) if ever offering feedback.

PS: Great forum!

 

[weaselboogie]

Just to add a point, there's a college here, 30,000 students. Graphics Arts is a major staple in that school. Kids drop $10,000-15,000 per year for 4 years to learn graphic arts. I suppose we could stop them all from day one by seeing 2 things they drew over 3 weeks and tell them all to quit now, you don't have the skills.

It those kids can get 4 years to learn it, with no job, just studying every day, then I think many of us deserve a little space on the design front when we're trying to learn while operating a business.

I went to Pittsburgh art institute and our beginning student count was at least 1/2 of our graduating class. Art Schools will accept ANYONE... it's their way of getting more money. It's having the talent and tenacity to do well and pass the courses that will get you through to your diploma.
So, to answer your retort, I don't think that anyone should stop them from attending.... Their own skill or lack thereof will eventually weed them out when the classes and workload become more difficult.

 

[Jillbeans]

I quit AIP in a snit just because after two quarters they were still pushing kids through who hadn't a clue, but had the $$ (or were provided the $$ by the gov't) to pay for classes.
In my class, there were maybe 4 other kids beside me who had any real ability.
You either have it or you don't.
Those who don't can learn to a certain extent what to do.
But some people never do learn it.

There are basic rules to layout and design.
Nobody likes rules, some deliberately break them and think they are being clever.
But if you try to learn the basic rules, you can get by to a degree.
When you know the rules and are blessed with talent, you can produce outstanding work.

Sometimes someone will put up something that looks like an abortion on a stick, and expect praise and high fives.
They don't know why it looks like an abortion on a stick to most everyone who sees it, it's their baby and they love it.
Someone will tell them what is wrong with their baby and try to dress it in a cute outfit.
They either listen to the advice or continue to dangle their baby expecting us to all cootchie coo.
Sometimes it gets pretty hard to watch.

Like Tater said, talent is something that is not included in the sign program and equipment they just bought.
If you bought yourself all that stuff, technically know how to use it correctly, know how to apply your sticky stuff without a bubble, that's great!
(that's the part I struggle with)
But if your design work still looks like an abortion on a stick, then it's time to pay someone to design for you.
You can afford all that other stuff, why waste your time producing turds with it.
Hire a professional.
Win/win.
I only say this to people whose work looks like an abortion on a stick.
Other people I do try to guide and educate.
Love.....Jill

 

[wetgravy]

Just to add a point, there's a college here, 30,000 students. Graphics Arts is a major staple in that school. Kids drop $10,000-15,000 per year for 4 years to learn graphic arts. I suppose we could stop them all from day one by seeing 2 things they drew over 3 weeks and tell them all to quit now, you don't have the skills.

Dude, only 15k? I know a few that paid more than that per semester. One guy got his masters in fine art and his bachelors alone was $140k he's in the hole now for over a quarter of a mill (before interest).

And for the record, after year 2 ... if you do anything sub par ... they will tell you to quit all the time. Had a lady friend back in the day come out of her senior portfolio review (basically the final review where they decide if you graduate or not) ... she graduated, a LOT of her class did not and while I waited to see how things turned out ... half the students (guys and girls) came out of their review in tears or about to kill someone. And I can't describe how many people I helped get through their portfolio reviews without a lot of hassle.

 

[Marlene]

This is something I see a lot in this Forum. Why is it that when people attempt to post a logo they put effort in so many members, Tell them give up and Hire a Professional?

there are times when even the best designer can't come up with a good idea and should hire a pro. there are posts of designs that suck but even in it's worst state of suck, the poster clearly has some talent but just needs a push to get it to come out. some times people should just not design at all.

 

[Locals Find!]

"....I see it has sparked some honest answers and some answers from a Newbie that is a bit pretentious.

Unnamed Newbie believes he can sort out children that are going to be artists or not by their scribbles with a Crayon. Seems to be a prevailing attitude around here."

Pretty sure this was directed at me. Now, I don't want to override the thread for a dumb pissing match, but you might want to know a little more about who you are calling a "newbie". In regards to this forum, yes...I AM a newbie. I don't even know how to quote your earlier reply. I came to this site a few months ago and have been lurking for a while, reading up on equipment, techniques, etc...while I start a new phase of my career opening a production/design shop. I have gained valuable insight and am grateful the site exists, it seems to be the best one around so that's why I joined.

I don't think my advice was worded harshly when I said "hire a professional". Blunt? Yes. Good advice? Yes. I started in this business when I was in high school, drawing signs by hand for grocery stores. Once laser printers came around, that died out so I worked at a vinyl shop through art college. Then I went to design school for four years, did an apprenticeship at a rather large company, got hired as a graphic designer for said company, and have been freelancing doing design for the last 14 years. All in all, 20 years of design under my belt.

I'm not saying this to be pretentious, far from it. I actually think that amongst many of my peers I've worked with over the years I am really quite average. But it's all relative.

What I CAN say, is that when I look at a logo after having been in this business for 20 years, yeah...I think I know pretty quickly what someone's abilities are. Adtechia, maybe this is a bit of a sore subject for you, because I seem to recall a similar thread you started and you actually DID hire someone who drew something up for you?

I say: GOOD! Because that piece of crap was going no where, no matter how many times you tried to spin it.

Sorry to all who got caught up in this long winded post - had to get that off my chest. I'll refrain from posts like this in the future and will try to be more constructive (or silent) if ever offering feedback.

PS: Great forum!

Post up some of your work in a Thread and Prove my opinion wrong.

 

[Jillbeans]

What I CAN say, is that when I look at a logo after having been in this business for 20 years, yeah...I think I know pretty quickly what someone's abilities are.

I agree.
And some people can learn to a certain degree.
But others are better off hiring out.

 

[CES020]

..so.. dude.. I'm tired of this incessant policing lately, of the way others choose to treat their fellow members around here..

Not nearly as tired as the 1000's of people reading that are sick of seeing the fighting.

...if the only opinion you have to offer in exercising your rightful privilege to share your opinion around here, is to denounce the manner in which others should exercise their rightful privilege to share their opinions...

then dude... start your own forum... hell, you could even call it "Thin Skin Armour"... and you could be the white knight that protects to fair maidens (man woman or otherwise) of bad design from the oppressive freewheelin' opinions of all them hard core design thugs at Signs101!!

That's GREAT! So if you have an opinion, then we should all sit and listen, but if I have an opinion, I should shut up and go start my own forum. Got it now, thanks for explaining it. I pay for membership on this forum just like you do and I'll post my opinion and beliefs just like you do. You don't like it, then hit the ignore button on my name. I guess when you replied to GrampaDan's post about treating people better, you only meant that for the minutes it took you to type it. Dan says it and you say "Dan, you're so right", I post it and I'm thinned skinned and need to leave the forum. Got it. At least you are consistent....oh wait....nevermind.

And just for the record, I wasn't talking about you, Gino, isign, Marlene, Bigdawg, SignManiac, Jill, or several others that have responded. I think the group of you have been EXTREMELY willing to share information and help people learn I think each one of you have helped me learn. I thought I was pretty clear, when I said it wasn't the normal group of people doing that, in my experience, it was people with a one liner, no helpful advice given, trying to take shots at people and wind things up just for the fun of it.

I have a ton of respect for all of you. I have learned a lot from ALL of you. I appreciate all I am taught by all who teach it. I also believe the old saying "A journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step".

I don't know where my journey will take me. But I do know that I won't stop taking steps because someone tells me I shouldn't bother with the journey. That's my belief. Might not be yours, and that's fine by me. We're all different. If I listened to people that told me I couldn't, then I wouldn't be where I am today. For one I'd not be walking right now. After an accident, I was told that I wouldn't walk without a cane for the rest of my life (not something you want to hear at 28 years old). However, I fought hard and worked hard to prove that doctor wrong, and I did.

 

[TheSellOut]

Pretty sure this was directed at me. Now, I don't want to override the thread for a dumb pissing match, but you might want to know a little more about who you are calling a "newbie"

Don't let it get to ya Forge...if you notice the OP calling you out as a "Pretentiou s Newbie", although he has over 500 posts, he also has only been here a few months!

 

[surf city]

Just because you can play a guitar doesn't make you a musician.

Are you friggin kiddin' me, you couldn't have mentioned that BEFORE I ordered a new guitar. And I soooooo wanted to be a rockstar, well my day is shot to hell might as well go make some signs.................

 

[Si Allen]

If you don't believe that some people couldn't produce or recognize a good design ... even if it came up and bit them in the ass ... just cruise through the Gallery pages!

There proudly displayed for all to see is a mix of beautiful work ... PLUS ... some absolute garbage!

 

[Bigdawg]

I went to Pittsburgh art institute and our beginning student count was at least 1/2 of our graduating class. Art Schools will accept ANYONE... it's their way of getting more money. It's having the talent and tenacity to do well and pass the courses that will get you through to your diploma.
So, to answer your retort, I don't think that anyone should stop them from attending.... Their own skill or lack thereof will eventually weed them out when the classes and workload become more difficult.

I am in the art business because of Ringling School of Art and Design in Sarasota Florida...

Never attended... but any students the first magazine I worked for hired had no clue of how to think outside the box. The all wanted to be Arteests... not produce commercially usable art and layouts.

So I was hired as a teenager... they wanted someone with a blank mind that they could teach how to look at layouts - and what was acceptable commercially. But you had to have some sort of eye for balance. I was not the first blank mind they tried - but I was the first one that got it. Some people never will

The woman that taught me pasteup and layout was a perfection wench. I hated her. I would bend down and kiss her toes now because I couldn't pay for the education she gave me (thank you June Elisabeth!!!).

School will only get you so far and I wish I had been able to attend college. But the experience and education I received in the real world has definitely trumped what I could have expected from school.