how long do you guarantee your wraps????

[Stuckup]

LOL, actually the full install and materials. Workmanship, fading and crazing, all failures. Even lifting and Acne. Anything that goes wrong I will fix. I do do research first, and ask the manufacturer what a converter is like as far as quality goes. I have been very lucky in that suppliers ask me to say what I think. Luckily they have never used that to make me pay. I do think they have let me off in the past. The manufacturer always pays for the re do when you keep in contact and do all they say. I used to do courses for Avery, Arlon and 3M, all at the same time, now I only do them for Avery, Why, because I told them who I did work for, Avery didnt care what I did, what competitor I helped. RIGHT product for the right job is all that matters. I am pro Avery, because I know how to use it. I also know with Arlon and 3M backup, They would be the same to me.

I just know, a proper association with any product gets you a full warranty, they the manufacturer PAY YOU to re do a job if it fails. GET ACCREDITED. Ask how to get a accredited. Just do it. If it costs too much money, ask a competitor who is, to get you accredited, and if you dont think some stranger will help you, think again. It does happen.BECAUSE if someone gets a few failures, means they actually TRIED, which most do not even try.Signies have Egos, need to be seen as Obi Wan lol.

 

[HulkSmash]

My powers of comprehension....? WOW.
I didn't say "violences inflicted out of your control"
I said stand behind your installation. There is a clear difference between a failure caused by faulty installation and scratches made by debris on a road or standard wear. The thousands of dollars paid for the product is about how much they are willing to lose due to poor workmanship and therefor more apt to care if it has some sort of warranty to protect their investment from such shoddy work. We ALL agree there are shoddy installations in this industry so stop acting like a customer is off their rocker for expecting some sort of Piece of mind.

Adolescent Hostilities aside, your chain beating vs wrap comment was a good one, I sometimes feel the same way.

+1

 

[Stuckup]

The stage, when one goes from wary or scared of vinyl, to out there in vinyl install, the fully open all in I dont care cause I dont fear attitude. When you get that status, you no longer fail. A mistake is a learning curve, not a failure.

 

[cdiesel]

My top 10 vehicle wrap failure causes, not in order.

1/ Poor cleaning/ wrong cleaning product.
2/ Paint protection on vehicle.
3/ Post heating FORGOTTEN.
4/ Not enough pressure with squeegee.
5/ Vehicle released same day and into cold weather or rain or large temperature drops.
6/ Solvent Inks not de gassed.
7/ Customer in installers ear while job is being done, a step is forgotten.
8/ The installer does not care.
9/ Temperature of vehicle is too low, on install.
10/ Cheap un proven material. Wrong material,
11/ Installing while under the Influence

All of these fall under number 8. Period. I MIGHT let number 6 slide, as it's sometimes hard to tell when full solvents are in use if they've been fully outgassed or not (I'd bet a lot of money that in most cases they are not--most of the shops running full solvent machines are running them due to their speed. Speed and outgassing are not conducive). However, if a print is truly not outgassed, it's much harder to install, and the installer should realize this.

 

[Stuckup]

"All of these fall under number 8. Period. I MIGHT let number 6 slide, as it's sometimes hard to tell when full solvents are in use if they've been fully outgassed or not (I'd bet a lot of money that in most cases they are not--most of the shops running full solvent machines are running them due to their speed. Speed and outgassing are not conducive). However, if a print is truly not outgassed, it's much harder to install, and the installer should realize this."

Not all people trying to install wraps fail because they dont care. Some clean incorrectly because they know no better. It can be imposing and with bad or un knowledgeable reps selling product they know nothing about the installation of or parameters, the installer can get into trouble. Some signies dont change with the new products and always try the same old practices, then blame the product, never testing it fully. Ambient temperature and temperature of Substrate does affect crucial Adhesive bonding time frames as do many other factors.

 

[cdiesel]

"All of these fall under number 8. Period. I MIGHT let number 6 slide, as it's sometimes hard to tell when full solvents are in use if they've been fully outgassed or not (I'd bet a lot of money that in most cases they are not--most of the shops running full solvent machines are running them due to their speed. Speed and outgassing are not conducive). However, if a print is truly not outgassed, it's much harder to install, and the installer should realize this."

Not all people trying to install wraps fail because they dont care. Some clean incorrectly because they know no better. It can be imposing and with bad or un knowledgeable reps selling product they know nothing about the installation of or parameters, the installer can get into trouble. Some signies dont change with the new products and always try the same old practices, then blame the product, never testing it fully. Ambient temperature and temperature of Substrate does affect crucial Adhesive bonding time frames as do many other factors.

Ignorance is not an excuse. If you don't know how to do something, don't do it. Learn the proper technique before selling subpar products to ignorant, innocent clients. Not adapting to new techniques is the installer's fault. Again, learn what you're doing. Take the time to educate yourself and hone your skills. Ambient temp? Seriously? If it's too hot/cold, don't install. Get a climate controlled facility and go to town.

Again, this ALL boils down to the installer not caring enough about the quality of the products they put out, the integrity of their company. If the installer truly cares about providing top notch products, installed correctly, he doesn't make excuses. He see issues before they become problems and fixes them. Nothing leaves the shop until it's perfect.

 

[cdiesel]

The stage, when one goes from wary or scared of vinyl, to out there in vinyl install, the fully open all in I dont care cause I dont fear attitude. When you get that status, you no longer fail. A mistake is a learning curve, not a failure.

Sorry, missed this when I quoted you before. Seriously? Try telling a client who's got a bumper popping all over the place cause you installed it poorly that the vinyl's not failing--you were just learning how to install it.

 

[Stuckup]

Ignorance is not an excuse. If you don't know how to do something, don't do it. Learn the proper technique before selling subpar products to ignorant, innocent clients. Not adapting to new techniques is the installer's fault. Again, learn what you're doing. Take the time to educate yourself and hone your skills. Ambient temp? Seriously? If it's too hot/cold, don't install. Get a climate controlled facility and go to town.

Again, this ALL boils down to the installer not caring enough about the quality of the products they put out, the integrity of their company. If the installer truly cares about providing top notch products, installed correctly, he doesn't make excuses. He see issues before they become problems and fixes them. Nothing leaves the shop until it's perfect.

Are you serious? How does one learn unless they try? What if you get wrong advice? A closed mind is a Dungeon. I think you are totally wrong on the seeing problems before they happen, unless you already know the issues and you are perfect. How did you learn Diesel, did you get Divine knowledge? Id hazard a guess you made mistakes and learnt from them, or from others mistakes. The first wrap I did was the first done in my State. To say a failure is due always to lack of care on the installers behalf is really just Naive. Who taught you? Or were you born with the skill. Seriously though, not all are gifted, and some of us learn the hard way, and some of us are willing to talk about our mistakes so others dont have to make the same.

As far as if you dont know dont try, oh well, maybe I shouldn't have learnt how to Screen print, lay vinyl, Spray cars, Weld, use a Computer, Teach what I learn, swing a Brush, Fix cars, Fishing, Laugh, Manufacture ETC cause I am sure as hell certain I learnt that all on my own. I LOOKED AT what others did and tried it, are you saying dont try, unless you already know. Sorry mate, I say give it a go, learn from mistakes and get advice.

I would suggest one does not stop a thread that newbies look at with blatant ego comments, and stop it dead. Just looks like one is then trying to protect their market NOT help others. That is what I see anyway, reminds me of the worker I fired not long ago, when I offered help so he didnt wreck any more 4" vinyl letters, his reply was hand in face, NO, NO, I KNOW WHAT I AM DOING.

PS. So do you give a 20 year warranty then? Since what you send out is perfect. And please tell me how long you have been in the game and how you Invented the market.

 

[HulkSmash]

Are you serious? How does one learn unless they try? What if you get wrong advice? A closed mind is a Dungeon. I think you are totally wrong on the seeing problems before they happen, unless you already know the issues and you are perfect. How did you learn Diesel, did you get Divine knowledge? Id hazard a guess you made mistakes and learnt from them, or from others mistakes. The first wrap I did was the first done in my State. To say a failure is due always to lack of care on the installers behalf is really just Naive. Who taught you? Or were you born with the skill. Seriously though, not all are gifted, and some of us learn the hard way, and some of us are willing to talk about our mistakes so others dont have to make the same.

As far as if you dont know dont try, oh well, maybe I shouldn't have learnt how to Screen print, lay vinyl, Spray cars, Weld, use a Computer, Teach what I learn, swing a Brush, Fix cars, Fishing, Laugh, Manufacture ETC cause I am sure as hell certain I learnt that all on my own. I LOOKED AT what others did and tried it, are you saying dont try, unless you already know. Sorry mate, I say give it a go, learn from mistakes and get advice.

I would suggest one does not stop a thread that newbies look at with blatant ego comments, and stop it dead. Just looks like one is then trying to protect their market NOT help others. That is what I see anyway, reminds me of the worker I fired not long ago, when I offered help so he didnt wreck any more 4" vinyl letters, his reply was hand in face, NO, NO, I KNOW WHAT I AM DOING.

PS. So do you give a 20 year warranty then? Since what you send out is perfect. And please tell me how long you have been in the game and how you Invented the market.

ummmmmm diesel is right --

You don't practice wraps on customer cars. Simple Logic. You don't learn by letting someone pay your 3k to be a guinea pig. If something is popping up when a customer comes, it gets re done, i don't explain oh we're new so this is our learning curve. By the time you get into the industry you better be near perfect with wraps or you won't be doing them long.

You get mentored, take classes, practice on your own vehicle -- Yes a learning curve, but at the point to where you're selling them -- you should be over that. Yes you can get faster, cleaner cuts, and better with problem areas over time.

 

[Stuckup]

OK we get mentored, but by who. What if we live in a small town. Seriously, wraps started somewhere, and some of us learnt fast on our own, we had to. Customers asked us to practice on their vehicles in times past. Not many started wraps here before me, and I practised on cars buses and boats, replaced vinyl till it was perfect. But to say you are not allowed to make a mistake is incredulous, practice makes perfect. Yes its easy now, lots of advice, but some of it is biased by dodgy Reps and sign shops. Some are mis-informed, or use old install processes and never change. The easiest way to get into wraps is to hire a contract installer, and learn from them. Im glad I dont live there because 2 to 3k is a half wrap here. The cheap back yarders too proud to ask for help just drive the price up. I love em. What you both say is correct, its just that even if you get it right and start wraps, a change in conditions can cause a failure and it does NOT MEAN the installer is automatically blamed or does not care.

 

[cdiesel]

Are you serious? How does one learn unless they try? What if you get wrong advice? A closed mind is a Dungeon. I think you are totally wrong on the seeing problems before they happen, unless you already know the issues and you are perfect. How did you learn Diesel, did you get Divine knowledge? Id hazard a guess you made mistakes and learnt from them, or from others mistakes. The first wrap I did was the first done in my State. To say a failure is due always to lack of care on the installers behalf is really just Naive. Who taught you? Or were you born with the skill. Seriously though, not all are gifted, and some of us learn the hard way, and some of us are willing to talk about our mistakes so others dont have to make the same.

If you knew the first thing about me, you'd know that I'm probably one of the most involved individuals in our industry when it comes to mentoring (both receiving & giving), sharing ideas, teaching newcomers and working with the vinyl manufacturers in their R&D. Heck, we just hosted the Rap & Wrap meetup at our shop last month.

I've been doing this a long time, and of course I made mistakes along the way. However, I don't believe in "on the job training" and charging a client for my "practice". Like Adam said, you don't tell a client "sorry for the failure, I'm learning"... you learn first, then you sell.

When we decided to start offering wraps, we already had an extensive working knowledge of vinyl. Not just how to install vinyl, but what vinyls to use and the intricacies in how to apply them including prep, install techniques, and most importantly proper finishing. Next we took classes that were taught by some of the founding fathers of our industry. After taking classes and practicing on our own and friends' & family's vehicles we decided we were ready to start offering wraps for sale. NOT before!

It's a total lack of caring (whether that's actually caring about how your work looks & lasts, or caring about educating yourself sufficiently) that causes 99% of the wrap failures out there. We see wraps DAILY that are failing all over the place. Many of them we know the installers. MOST of the time these installers that are putting out shoddy work have been doing so for a long, long time. It's definitely not a lack of experience, it's a lack of caring about their work enough to put out quality product that lasts.

I am by NO means claiming to be perfect or trying to turn off any newbies to our industry. I welcome them with open arms! However, I cannot stress enough the importance of learning proper technique, vinyl selection, pre installation prepping methods, proper finishing techniques and after-installation care of the wrap.

We (both myself and my trusted installers) make mistakes. Like I said we don't claim to be perfect. However, we CARE enough about our reputation and product to make sure any issues are addressed and fixed before the client ever sees the vehicle.

You asked who to seek training from if you live in a small town? Go to a bigger one. Schedule a trip and get proper training. Customer's asked you to practice on their vehicles? Or you asked them? Did you charge them? I never once said you are not allowed to make mistakes. You are not allowed to force your mistakes onto your customers in the form of a failing wrap that they paid you good money for. What "change in condition" could cause a failure that is not known to the installer so they can take the proper steps to avoid said failure? If something happens to affect the quality or durability of a wrap IT'S THE INSTALLERS JOB & RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX IT. Choosing not to properly educate yourself and provide a top-notch wrap is pure negligence.

 

[Stuckup]

Your allowed to say how you feel. Im wondering why we are on about not testing on customers cars. When I started we had to as it was never done before. And there is nothing wrong with practising installs on your own vehicles, even partial areas. Im sure I didnt suggest that one goes and gets their first wrap and does it on a customers car with no training. I am involved in training, and trouble shooting problems/causes for manufacturers and suppliers. I agree with you The most common fault is the Installer. Many times it is the Boss forcing installers to cut corners, time constraints and not listening to installers or manufacturers advice. I see it a lot where the installer cant defy the Boss, they need their Job, so the the only thing I argue is that the installer is not always at fault.

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

ALL I have to say is if you come around my neck of the woods to "Practice" wraps on customers vehicles...I'll wave goodbye after a few months when you go out of business after pissing off enough customers. I'm just saying.

 

[CheapVehicleWrap]

ALL I have to say is if you come around my neck of the woods to "Practice" wraps on customers vehicles...I'll wave goodbye after a few months when you go out of business after pissing off enough customers. I'm just saying.

Do you travel? Can always use a good waver.

 

[rjssigns]

I have been following this thread and I am confused. If you have to be "perfect" before you sell a wrap where do you get experience? What about the new hire that shows drive and real talent for wrapping? Where does he or she practice? It seems they would never be allowed to touch a client vehicle in the shop until they had wrapped a bunch of vehicles. Like I said I'm confused. Seems like a Catch 22.

And yes I have wonderful clients that have allowed me to use their vehicles as "guinea" pigs. That is how I learned to paint two and three stage paints and candies. It is how I learned to do partials by myself. And so on.

On a different note: I am wondering where all the vitriol and personal attacks are coming from on this site. I see more and more everyday. This business is tough enough without being attacked for your opinion. It just isn't worth coming to a site where you are told you are "stoopid" or worse because you asked a question or tried your best to offer advice. The anonymity of the web gives some folks here some big cojones. They feel free to say to you what they wouldn't have the stones to say to your face.

That is all. I am going to lay by my dish now.

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

I have been following this thread and I am confused. If you have to be "perfect" before you sell a wrap where do you get experience? What about the new hire that shows drive and real talent for wrapping? Where does he or she practice? It seems they would never be allowed to touch a client vehicle in the shop until they had wrapped a bunch of vehicles. Like I said I'm confused. Seems like a Catch 22.

And yes I have wonderful clients that have allowed me to use their vehicles as "guinea" pigs. That is how I learned to paint two and three stage paints and candies. It is how I learned to do partials by myself. And so on.

On a different note: I am wondering where all the vitriol and personal attacks are coming from on this site. I see more and more everyday. This business is tough enough without being attacked for your opinion. It just isn't worth coming to a site where you are told you are "stoopid" or worse because you asked a question or tried your best to offer advice. The anonymity of the web gives some folks here some big cojones. They feel free to say to you what they wouldn't have the stones to say to your face.

That is all. I am going to lay by my dish now.

As for learning to wrap...yeah if you aren't the primary installer and your boss doesn't mind paying for reprints etc...you can learn like an apprentice. If you're the only installer, just be prepared to reprint, take long, and tick off your customers with sub par work. I know that's how my early days were. Like they said, practicing on your own car is best.
As for saying things to peoples faces vs online...since when does calling someone "stoopid" warrant a physical assault? I'd call the biggest guy in here stoopid if he was being it. I'm 6'2" 210 lbs but Wouldn't fight someone for calling me names, that's childish. so is name calling I guess. That being said, if someone really wants to get physical with me over some choice heated words on a forum due to differing opinions, & drive who knows how far from where they are, it's not hard to find me. My address is on my website for the whole world to see.
Some people say stupid things on here....and other people call them on it.

 

[Circleville Signs]

Ya'll are arguing semantics.

Let me boil it down for ya

Don't give the client shoddy work. If you wrap something, and it's popping, call the client and explain that there has been a delay, and the vehicle won't be ready until "x".

Before starting a wrap business, GO WORK IN A WRAP BUSINESS for a while.

The end

 

[cdiesel]

On a different note: I am wondering where all the vitriol and personal attacks are coming from on this site. I see more and more everyday. This business is tough enough without being attacked for your opinion. It just isn't worth coming to a site where you are told you are "stoopid" or worse because you asked a question or tried your best to offer advice. The anonymity of the web gives some folks here some big cojones. They feel free to say to you what they wouldn't have the stones to say to your face.

That is all. I am going to lay by my dish now.

KW and Circleville hit the nail on the head. If you don't know how to wrap, go learn. Learn in a shop where people who know what they're doing can teach you, not by owning a shop selling crap to your customers.

As for personal attacks, not sure if you're referring to me or not.. but, I'm extremely concerned at the amount of HORRIBLE advice I've seen lately from people who have no idea what they're talking about. The biggest problem is that people who are new to the industry don't know the difference between the good & bad advice. The proliferation of bad advice, if implemented by the next generation of sign people is going to kill the industry.

I'm a big believer in "don't say something online that you wouldn't say in person". Just got done discussing this with my daughter. There are some people that don't belong in this industry, let alone giving advice about it!

 

[Dan Antonelli]

Service is what you get from a waiter.

And commodities are what you get when selling vinyl by the pound. Available from any sign shop. Therefore consumer has no choice to view your shop as the same as every other shop, and the lowest denominator (price) is what drives purchasing decision.

Service will sell for far higher price than any commodity, because the service can't be obtained at every shop.

 

[SightLine]

I'd agree to an extent that there is a bit of a catch 22 situation. If you are in a scenario where you cannot tell your customer that you have absolute confidence in your or your installers ability then I woudl clearly communicate this to the customer and offer a significant discount. We have places around town that train barbers and stylists, vocations schools that train workers on auto painting, etc. You get a big discount from them because the person doing the work is PRACTICING on you/your vehicle/product etc.

And yes.... 6-7 years ago when we did our first wraps we did our own vehicles first then flat out told our customers that we were not experienced. Offerem them a significant discount.

As far warranties go. The only thing we are going to use on a full wrap is laminated 3M 180. We have tried other materiels including just a few months back tried Avery again but we let the customer know, gave a discount and told them only 1 year warranty. Glad we did because every time over the years we try some other material I am quickly reminded why we stick with 3M. 99% of the other brand suck. With some exclusions we warrant the materials and installation for 3 years. In hundreds of wraps we have never once had to replace a wrap under warranty. The exclusions of course are horizontal surfaces, window perf, and where the material might be applied to some non-standard surface like plastics or rubber. These are also clearly communicated to the customer as well as expected care. We tell them if they leave the vehicle out in the direct sun 365 days a year and never wash or care for it (they must wax it with a synthetic wax at least once a year, twice preferred and wash it regularly not leaving tree sap, bug splatter, etc on it for weeks on end) the warranty is void. Of course this is hard to prove we only do commercial work and generally see the vehicles on occasion.