How many of you could leave your shop behind for at least a month and not have any issues?

[Notarealsignguy]

I'm sure the CEO of Delta has no idea to fly a plane, but then you are talking about a massive corporation, not a small sign business. Pretty sure if they lost a couple of pilots tomorrow they would have plenty of spare ones who could step in.

It takes a special license and specific training so hiring a pilot is fairly simple IMO. They HAVE to know how to do the job and have thousands of hours of experience before they even get their license so there is no gray area and very little risk in hiring.

 

[WhatsYourSign?]

I will concede this point although I think the example isn't a good fit but the principal of working on your business rather than in it is a good one. You can know how to do all aspects of your business and not fill any of the roles which helps tremendously and keeps you nimble. Many people here likely do the same thing, that is just a normal growth progression for a business for the owner to slowly remove themselves from the day to day operations to focus on the larger picture. Nothing really mind blowing.
With that being said, I have made the mistake of getting myself stuck in doing the majority of the graphic design and printing for the exact reason you stated "nobody can do it as good as me." Even though I know this is far from the truth (I am not a good or efficient designer), it's a rut I got myself into knowing full well that it was a bad move from the start. The better you get, the more gun shy and critical you become of hiring your replacement.
The painting side of my business I have stayed out of because I don't like the actual work. I can paint, blast, weld, fiberglass, bodywork pretty much anything the shop has but it takes an act of god to get me out there to do any of it. I have been backed in a corner on that side multiple times but I also watch my friend who owns a body shop totally stuck painting everyday because his too nit picky and nobody can do it as good as him. We also sell commercial trucks and I hate auctions so we have a guy who does it but he is invested in his role so there is no real risk of him quitting.
Either way, It's still not an absentee type of business. If you have a GM, you have to manage them whether they are great and making $200k/yr or green making $50k. You have to be present to do that, not everyday but more often than not or things can and do go sideways pretty quick. Don't discount this just because what you have is working right now, I've seen it happen and have had it happen. It seems like you don't want to hear some of this stuff because what you are doing is working but you always need to listen to people's failures as much or more as people's successes. Without speaking for anyone else, I believe this is what many here have been trying to tell you.

I got defensive because people thought I was making things up and some of that probably carried over into other parts of this conversation. For that, I'm sorry.

I agree I'm not fully absentee - I have two 90-minute meetings with my two leaders every other week.

I also still manage the finances...this will be the last thing I give up. I have too many friends who are business owners that had people steal money from them when they handed over 100% of the financials to somebody else, and numbers is something I'm good as (despite some of the debate on this).

I also have a passion for technology so I still actively manage our tech tools because I enjoy it.

The area of the business where I'm more involved than I'd like to be is IT (since that's the area where I have the depth, I haven't hired anybody to take this over), but fortunately this isn't a big commitment.

On average I probably average 15-20 hours/week working on the business (the rest of the time goes toward my other business).

With that said, I'm about to board a flight home now after a month on vacation/ISA where in total I spent less than 8 hours in 4 weeks on the business, and it continued to grow and operate in my absence (which was the goal when I made this post 5+ years ago).

I have no desire to be 100% absentee - I still enjoy the team and the relationships I've built + the challenge of figuring out the next move to continue our growth (i.e. acquisitions as other sign company owners want to retire).

I'm glad this thread finished better than it started yesterday. Thank you.

 

[Johnny Best]

Which ones do you succumb to?

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

All of them.

 

[Signarama Jockey]

Division of Labor.

There's a book that's called "I, Pencil", and it is about the surprisingly complex chain of production to create a single #2 graphite pencil. The fact is that no one person has the skill time or resources to produce a pencil from scratch. It's just a simple pencil, and it is utterly beyond the reach of any of us on our own. A pencil requires resources from all over, and each resource has to be harvested and processed and shipped and ultimately married together into the final product. The point of the story is that the coordination of experts makes possible the production of a products that a single person could not possibly produce on their own. Teams and cooperation work. People working together to accomplish goals can do amazing things.

I mean, who here makes their own ACM boards? Who here mixes the chemicals and rolls out their vinyl? Can you fix all of the broken parts on your machines? Fix all of the network and computer problems you've got? Make all of the clip art you use? No, it's crazy. If you had to learn how to do everything, you'll never have time for anything, and you'll be spending so much time running network cables and unclogging toilets that you won't make any signs.

It is more efficient to hire people who know what they are doing and let them shine in their field of expertise.

 

[WhatsYourSign?]

Division of Labor.

There's a book that's called "I, Pencil", and it is about the surprisingly complex chain of production to create a single #2 graphite pencil. The fact is that no one person has the skill time or resources to produce a pencil from scratch. It's just a simple pencil, and it is utterly beyond the reach of any of us on our own. A pencil requires resources from all over, and each resource has to be harvested and processed and shipped and ultimately married together into the final product. The point of the story is that the coordination of experts makes possible the production of a products that a single person could not possibly produce on their own. Teams and cooperation work. People working together to accomplish goals can do amazing things.

I mean, who here makes their own ACM boards? Who here mixes the chemicals and rolls out their vinyl? Can you fix all of the broken parts on your machines? Fix all of the network and computer problems you've got? Make all of the clip art you use? No, it's crazy. If you had to learn how to do everything, you'll never have time for anything, and you'll be spending so much time running network cables and unclogging toilets that you won't make any signs.

It is more efficient to hire people who know what they are doing and let them shine in their field of expertise.

This.

Also - I've been intentional since the beginning about nobody knowing how to do everything (i.e. my installers don't know how to do design or run the printers).

Somebody who could do everything would have helped a lot in those early days, but doing this made it less likely somebody would leave and start their own shop to compete with us.

That's easier to do these days as we've grown, but I've been intentional about that since day 1.

The one guy who left to do his own thing already had 20 years industry experience before joining us. (he was also a bad hire... Tons of knowledge but didn't want to learn our way of doing things and was super toxic)

Back to your point - as a collective we have deeper levels of expertise by having specialists in each role... You're absolutely right about it being more efficient at scale.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Division of Labor.

There's a book that's called "I, Pencil", and it is about the surprisingly complex chain of production to create a single #2 graphite pencil. The fact is that no one person has the skill time or resources to produce a pencil from scratch. It's just a simple pencil, and it is utterly beyond the reach of any of us on our own. A pencil requires resources from all over, and each resource has to be harvested and processed and shipped and ultimately married together into the final product. The point of the story is that the coordination of experts makes possible the production of a products that a single person could not possibly produce on their own. Teams and cooperation work. People working together to accomplish goals can do amazing things.

I mean, who here makes their own ACM boards? Who here mixes the chemicals and rolls out their vinyl? Can you fix all of the broken parts on your machines? Fix all of the network and computer problems you've got? Make all of the clip art you use? No, it's crazy. If you had to learn how to do everything, you'll never have time for anything, and you'll be spending so much time running network cables and unclogging toilets that you won't make any signs.

It is more efficient to hire people who know what they are doing and let them shine in their field of expertise.

Some of you are missing depth. You're taking about manufacturing widgets. We're not fabricating pencils or ACM panels. Same product every day... apples and oranges

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Division of Labor.

There's a book that's called "I, Pencil", and it is about the surprisingly complex chain of production to create a single #2 graphite pencil. The fact is that no one person has the skill time or resources to produce a pencil from scratch. It's just a simple pencil, and it is utterly beyond the reach of any of us on our own. A pencil requires resources from all over, and each resource has to be harvested and processed and shipped and ultimately married together into the final product. The point of the story is that the coordination of experts makes possible the production of a products that a single person could not possibly produce on their own. Teams and cooperation work. People working together to accomplish goals can do amazing things.

I mean, who here makes their own ACM boards? Who here mixes the chemicals and rolls out their vinyl? Can you fix all of the broken parts on your machines? Fix all of the network and computer problems you've got? Make all of the clip art you use? No, it's crazy. If you had to learn how to do everything, you'll never have time for anything, and you'll be spending so much time running network cables and unclogging toilets that you won't make any signs.

It is more efficient to hire people who know what they are doing and let them shine in their field of expertise.

There are many examples of companies that are end to end producers so that is not entirely true. You're on a bit of a tangent here comparing a high volume low margin process that requires millions upon millions of equipment to a sign shop that does not produce 1 single product over and over.
On paper what you say is a great concept, that's why you see it in a book but don't see it being pulled off in actuality to the degree you described. On this small business level, you will spend yourself out of business by paying outside contractors to do all of this stuff. Now, you can build something so big that this can become a reality but now you have this big operation that needs lots of business and capital to remain viable so you essentially trade one headache for another. I'd rather find that happy medium even if that requires me to unclog toilets but to each their own. I find security and happiness in not having a boatload of pressure to pay the bills and knowing that I won't lose everything if this all came to a screeching halt. As I said earlier, the endless pursuit of money over self is not something I will ever understand. Learning and doing new things is enjoyable and knowing how to do as much as you can keeps you from being beholden to anyone. That is freedom to me.

 

[Signarama Jockey]

There are many examples of companies that are end to end producers so that is not entirely true. You're on a bit of a tangent here comparing a high volume low margin process that requires millions upon millions of equipment to a sign shop that does not produce 1 single product over and over.
On paper what you say is a great concept, that's why you see it in a book but don't see it being pulled off in actuality to the degree you described. On this small business level, you will spend yourself out of business by paying outside contractors to do all of this stuff. Now, you can build something so big that this can become a reality but now you have this big operation that needs lots of business and capital to remain viable so you essentially trade one headache for another. I'd rather find that happy medium even if that requires me to unclog toilets but to each their own. I find security and happiness in not having a boatload of pressure to pay the bills and knowing that I won't lose everything if this all came to a screeching halt. As I said earlier, the endless pursuit of money over self is not something I will ever understand. Learning and doing new things is enjoyable and knowing how to do as much as you can keeps you from being beholden to anyone. That is freedom to me.

You know, you and I have a lot in common here; I don't want to come off like I entirely disagree with you. I like knowing a lot of things, and I am confident in my ability to teach the things I know and learn new things. It's nice being the go-to guy when there is a snag, and I feel best solving problems. I bet you have a similar approach to things. But you and I are really only capable of doing so much in a day. Even if you know how to sell the job, do the graphic design work, the material ordering, the printing, the laminating and weeding and then the application and eventually install - even if you know every step of that process backwards and forwards, how many jobs are you capable of completing in a day? It's not like your whole team can take the week off and you'll have carried the whole store as if they had worked.

I'm sure you're good, but you're much more productive with a team alongside you. He's just talking about a point further along that spectrum.

And I don't want to start an argument, but I have to disagree with your issue with doing things for the money. I like my job, but if they stopped paying me I would not show up anymore. This whole capitalistic enterprise is built on all of us putting in work and getting compensated for it. If you're not being appropriately compensated, you're being exploited. Money should reflect the value you have contributed to the world. If you make money honestly, that shows that people value your contribution to them and they voluntarily compensate you. I disagree that the pursuit of money is a bad thing. If you have no particular attachment to your money, I can send you an address where you can mail some of it. Maybe we just are on different pages on that.

 

[Gino]

Ha................... this thing went from bashing the OP to now everyone wanting a big hug and getting along in the sandbox.

From all the tribulations and BS the OP says he went through, the average.... and even above average sign person could never have endured. That is why there are certain steps or areas of this success story which do not make sense. The theories and backpedaling can work from any point of view, but it just doesn't make sense. More power to ya whatsyour.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

You know, you and I have a lot in common here; I don't want to come off like I entirely disagree with you. I like knowing a lot of things, and I am confident in my ability to teach the things I know and learn new things. It's nice being the go-to guy when there is a snag, and I feel best solving problems. I bet you have a similar approach to things. But you and I are really only capable of doing so much in a day. Even if you know how to sell the job, do the graphic design work, the material ordering, the printing, the laminating and weeding and then the application and eventually install - even if you know every step of that process backwards and forwards, how many jobs are you capable of completing in a day? It's not like your whole team can take the week off and you'll have carried the whole store as if they had worked.

I'm sure you're good, but you're much more productive with a team alongside you. He's just talking about a point further along that spectrum.

And I don't want to start an argument, but I have to disagree with your issue with doing things for the money. I like my job, but if they stopped paying me I would not show up anymore. This whole capitalistic enterprise is built on all of us putting in work and getting compensated for it. If you're not being appropriately compensated, you're being exploited. Money should reflect the value you have contributed to the world. If you make money honestly, that shows that people value your contribution to them and they voluntarily compensate you. I disagree that the pursuit of money is a bad thing. If you have no particular attachment to your money, I can send you an address where you can mail some of it. Maybe we just are on different pages on that.

I more meant that after basic monetary needs are met, then anything above that doesn't matter as long as the work is enjoyable but that's in the context of being self employed. I'm not working for anyone but myself for free.
You're correct that 1 person can't do everything, you do what you can when you can and I have a problem trying to do too much myself but that's a personality flaw. I just like being busy? Idle hands are the devil's workshop.

 

[Johnny Best]

I'm going to make my millions playing Powerball.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I'm Going to make my millions playing Powerball.

Are you going to buy the ticket yourself or hire Uber to go to the store for you so you have more time to watch TV?

 

[WhatsYourSign?]

Ha................... this thing went from bashing the OP to now everyone wanting a big hug and getting along in the sandbox.

From all the tribulations and BS the OP says he went through, the average.... and even above average sign person could never have endured. That is why there are certain steps or areas of this success story which do not make sense. The theories and backpedaling can work from any point of view, but it just doesn't make sense. More power to ya whatsyour.

I already said it to somebody else, but not believing my story when it's true is by far the biggest compliment anybody could give me... Thank you.

I'm fortunate to have endured and come out on the other side without failing, and I'm extremely grateful for that.

 

[damonCA21]

I agree that just hiring other people because you can't do it yourself is a strange business setup. Anyone can just farm everything out to other people in any business, but that doesn't mean you are going to do well and you are leaving yourself open to massive risk.
For the OP, if he managed the business himself he could pay himself an extra $250K or so a year....

 

[WhatsYourSign?]

I agree that just hiring other people because you can't do it yourself is a strange business setup. Anyone can just farm everything out to other people in any business, but that doesn't mean you are going to do well and you are leaving yourself open to massive risk.
For the OP, if he managed the business himself he could pay himself an extra $250K or so a year....

I could pay myself that extra money - but I've already said money isn't the driver for me, freedom is.

Giving up $200k/year is worth not having to deal with the stress of things.

In addition to that, while I got us from $0 to where we are today, I don't think I'm the guy to get us from where we are today to the next level.

I'm a big picture guy, not an in the weeds detail person.

I always wondered why I'd see founders of companies who are no longer in the driver seat, and I get it now... My goal is to see us continue to grow and I'm able to set my pride aside and admit that I'm not that guy.

The greater good for us is that my GM runs the show... I'll help guide and lead him, but he's doing better in that role than I would be.

By paying somebody to manage the daily operations, I'm also freeing myself up to work on more strategic initiatives.

---

Beyond that - risk is the name of the game. I didn't get to where I am today by playing it safe. If you go back and reread the high level overview of what transpired over the past five years, you'll see there's nothing about me that was conservative... I've doubled down on the risk at every step. (I didn't pay myself for four years and pushed us to the brink of bankruptcy after draining our finances... That wasn't the safe play...the safe play there would have been to pay myself much sooner, but that would have required me to get caught up in the details instead of focusing on growth, which would have guaranteed we wouldn't be where we are where we are today).

Gino may say I endured things the average/above average sign guy couldn't... But it's easy when I have faith in somebody greater than myself.

At every step I've reminded myself that God didn't take me this far to only take me this far.

I realize not all of you may share my faith, but with the faith I have, it's been very easy to continue to double down because I know who my leader is and whose calling I'm following.

 

[WhatsYourSign?]

Ha................... this thing went from bashing the OP to now everyone wanting a big hug and getting along in the sandbox.

From all the tribulations and BS the OP says he went through, the average.... and even above average sign person could never have endured. That is why there are certain steps or areas of this success story which do not make sense. The theories and backpedaling can work from any point of view, but it just doesn't make sense. More power to ya whatsyour.

You may not realize it - but a couple of the things you've said to me will live long beyond this thread.

Someday when I'm sharing my testimony as a Christian and an entrepreneur with others, I'm going to share the screenshots of your posts as evidence of what's possible when we put our faith in God and follow Him without fear.

The results are so incredible that people don't believe them...

You've given me a gift bigger than you realize.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I could pay myself that extra money - but I've already said money isn't the driver for me, freedom is.

Giving up $200k/year is worth not having to deal with the stress of things.

In addition to that, while I got us from $0 to where we are today, I don't think I'm the guy to get us from where we are today to the next level.

I'm a big picture guy, not an in the weeds detail person.

I always wondered why I'd see founders of companies who are no longer in the driver seat, and I get it now... My goal is to see us continue to grow and I'm able to set my pride aside and admit that I'm not that guy.

The greater good for us is that my GM runs the show... I'll help guide and lead him, but he's doing better in that role than I would be.

By paying somebody to manage the daily operations, I'm also freeing myself up to work on more strategic initiatives.

---

Beyond that - risk is the name of the game. I didn't get to where I am today by playing it safe. If you go back and reread the high level overview of what transpired over the past five years, you'll see there's nothing about me that was conservative... I've doubled down on the risk at every step.

Gino may say I endured things the average/above average sign guy couldn't... But it's easy when I have faith in somebody greater than myself.

At every step I've reminded myself that God didn't take me this far to only take me this far.

I realize not all of you may share my faith, but with the faith I have, it's been very easy to continue to double down because I know who my leader is and whose calling I'm following.

That's what I'm saying, in order to get this idea of freedom you have, you have to do more and more which is self defeating. Nobody sticks around forever, even 50/50 business partners eventually split, in fact, I saw that unfold the other day with a multi million dollar construction business. 1 guys the field, the other is the office and now it's a disaster.
I'm not an in the weeds person either, I delegate what I don't like and keep the cream for myself. I don't want someone above me that holds the keys to my kingdom, that isn't freedom, that's 1 step away from disaster. You are talking about the future but ignoring the elephant in the room. Everything works until it doesn't and that is why I feel it is important to be engaged in your work and know all aspects of it. You don't have to be the day to day guy or even the one who jumps in to provide a little excess capacity as needed but you do need to be the stopgap when things go off course. It happens and from my experience, there's a cycle every so many years where you lose a good guy and usually have another one that jumps off around the same time.
You keep saying that you pay well, to the point that it seems you regard this as being the #1 motivator of people and it is not. Overpaying traps people and you do not want anyone trapped in their job, that is a catalyst for a toxic work environment. I'm not saying to not pay people well, I'm simply pointing out that it is not enough to keep someone forever. Nothing you do will so always be prepared.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I agree that just hiring other people because you can't do it yourself is a strange business setup. Anyone can just farm everything out to other people in any business, but that doesn't mean you are going to do well and you are leaving yourself open to massive risk.
For the OP, if he managed the business himself he could pay himself an extra $250K or so a year....

Exactly so if your net is 20-30%, fairly average, then you need around $800k in additional revenue just to cover this added person. To get that extra $800k, now you need more space, people and machines which gets stacked on top and the cycle repeats forever until you put on the brakes or spend yourself into bankruptcy trying to chase this thing.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Growth minded, big picture guy, next level, in the weeds, strategic initiatives... you are hitting all the catch phrases in one post.. good job.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Growth minded, big picture guy, next level, in the weeds, strategic initiatives... you are hitting all the catch phrases in one post.. good job.

Phrases from the unicorn business books for people who think they're gonna become a unicorn.