Looks like it wasn't meant to be.

[Joe Diaz]

Looks like that job wasn't meant to be. I had a guy call about having some design work done, after quoting him a price, he says it's too high and he can get it done much cheaper through crowd sourcing. At that point I lost any enthusiasm I had for selling the job to that particular person. I know his comments weren't meant as a personal jab, but it felt like there was no respect for what I bring to the table. It seemed like a big red flag to me, and I'm certainly not going to lower my prices just to compete with those sites. I spent less time then I have in the past trying to convince this person that hiring a professional is better than crowd sourcing.

These comments are becoming more common, and it's along the same lines as "all you have to do is press a button". I don't know about you all, but I've personally found that the majority of the time my attempt to convince them falls on deaf ears and every minute I spend on the phone talking to them is a waste of time, and time away from the work we do have. I'm polite about it, but most of the time it ends with me telling them I'm not interested.

The devil on my shoulder tells me to send them this video, the angle says just let it go:
[video=youtube;DsstOs-K7gk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsstOs-K7gk[/video]

 

[Mosh]

Cool, I'm posting that on FB.

 

[CES020]

I had an email inquiry last week about laser engraving some items. The logo they provided wouldn't work for what they wanted to do. He asked for a price and I have him a price, stating the artwork had to be in the proper format, and I explained what we needed.

He emailed me back and said "Thanks, I'm having a professional do the artwork, so please review their specs at this link and let me know if those specs work for you".

I clicked the link. It was to fiver.com where a guy would make the logo for $10 bucks.

I thought "how sad that someone thinks a 'professional' is doing logos for $10 each".

 

[John Butto]

my observation

This has been coming quite some time ago. What I am talking about is the outsourcing of everything in America. A few years back started to see the alot of YouTube videos of how to do logos with type and they were mostly done by foreigners. They all had the same style with fonts and some symbol. Of course vector art which you can purchase or steal from places like Shutterstock has progress really fast. So about two years ago I started to find the places to compete in these contests. Some places you can get up to $600 and sometimes you are doing them for $50, and some even for $10. These competitors are mostly from overseas, India, where the annual income is maybe $650 a year. So if you sell a logo for $50 US that might be a good months work. Sure they steal art, they are hungrey and drones are flying overhead and your mother and father just sent your 5 year old brother to be a jockey at the horse races.
So what did I learn from my internet travels, you have to design differently, you have to be fast, some contest only last 24 hours and you will see it with an hour to go. They are good, no new stuff but it has a finished look to it. I still ran my business and mostly just did them to take a 10 minute break from the things I was working on. It was fun, you get to know peoples styles, and believe me they have the look of a lot of the stuff I see here. Hell, I had paypal money to play with and they can't tax you on that. If I was young again, I would hit those sites hard and make some deceit money, pick your own time to work, it is like the guys who play poker or bet the football and ponies. Better than climbing ladders or digging holes or worrying about your printer breaking and looking to match fonts or dealing with customers who think you charge too much and are going to the internet to do business.
So if you want to sit and watch and complain as this wave takes over, because it already is, you will be out of work just like Detroit is now. Competition is good, have done my tour of duty with these overseas "graphix" designers and you are no longer safe in the Shire fellow sign designers.

 

[SignManiac]

I have to agree John. There's no stopping it. The internet is a tidal wave that is hitting our shores and with people in third world countries starving, no amount of logic or right or wrong is going to make it go away. Nearly everything today is a commodity unless you are specialized enough to be in a niche market. Fifty years from now jobs will be harder to come by as robots begin to take over doing everything. Not bad but who going to feed the jobless?

 

[CanuckSigns]

Yup, i couldn't tell you the last time I sold a logo design to someone, it seems that with sites like fiverr and others, people are getting graphic design work done for much less than we can do it for. Unfortunately, graphic design is something that can be done on the other side of the world relatively easily, and over there $5-$10 is quite a bit of money, so I can't say i blame them for working so "cheaply"

Some of the stuff i've seen is pretty good as well, sure it's full of stock art and other un-unique elements, but honestly, the general public doesn't care, and if you try to educate them, you loose them, people don't want to hear why they should spend more with you.

 

[Z SIGNS]

I feel your pain

Most people inquiring about a sign treat it like it's a commodity.

Most people don't even call anymore.You just get an e mail asking for the price of a sign.The same e mail that they sent to every sign shop within 50 miles of their location.

Yes they need a sign but what they really need is a proper solution to there signage needs.

We all know what the plotter, printer, cnc machines and overseas designers have done but I predict this is only the beginning.

Just wait until every sign is a tv screen and all dimensional signs are 3d printed.

 

[Techman]

Just FYI.

There is a quiet movement towards getting internet work done overseas. You pay $200 a month for a professional to do website work full time.

I know for a fact that a local company hired 3 full time workers overseas. They skype in the morning. (their late afternoon) and set teh agenda for the next day. This same company is an internet marketing company doing work for a number of clients.

So unless we can arise and overcome we are facing a tough future.

As for fiver,, you get a $5 gig there for a logo and then get hit for up-charges. Its not all that.

 

[Rick]

Joe,

I just took a peek at 99 Designs... they did $2,069,196
in payouts, if that is what they paid out, then they took
in 2-3,00,000 bucks, (they pay 30-50% of each contest)
they have 90 employees in three offices. I'm thinking
someone made about 1-2 million bucks. Designers aren't the
ones making the money...

With the gold package you get 90 designs from expert designers...
One client, 375,00 designers let loose on them....
that's called a logo design gang-bang

Sign shops have been working on spec for years... 2 of
my major freelance clients work on spec. They'll have me
design apartment signs to win a bid... I still get paid, they
take the risk, but the pay off is a lot more than a chump 50
bucks if they win.

The other problem is.....
We have a client we are working with where we were paid
a decent amount for the branding, but we were hoping to
make it up with cards, stationery, banners and website.
They ended up finding 10,000 business cards for a couple
of hundred bucks and a pull up banner for 125... So not
only can clients get a cheap logo, they can get it printed
close to wholesale pricing.

You can't ignore the the problem, but you sure as hell don't
have to compete with them.

 

[GAC05]

Once these little guys are equipped with pens/pencils or print heads it will all be over for organic carbon based designers......

[video=youtube;xK54Bu9HFRw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK54Bu9HFRw#t=62[/video]



wayne k
guam usa

 

[Joe Diaz]

I personally believe that there will always be a need to purchase design services the more traditional way where the design process involving proper collaboration between design and client is necessary, and where the designer gets paid for the work he or she does. So far we personally aren't seeing this type of work disappear, but perhaps I can chalk that up to just plain old luck. Last year was our best year for selling design, and this year is looking better than last. But even so, we have also seen an increase in these types of comments about spec work. So if it is just a case of "Deal with it Joe, It's the future" That's fine and dandy. I'm sure we will find a way to survive. What it does do though is make it much harder for those that want to get started in that industry and make a living off of it. And it should worry us all, because everything about that system is designed to devalue what we bring to the the table as designers and it devalues the importance of a businesses brand, something that in my opinion shouldn't be about how fast something can be whipped together and how many can I create in week, for $50 a pop (if you win), and it certainly shouldn't have anything to do with the theft of other's design work. It gives us all a bad rap. It doesn't have to be the future you know, It's not like you see restaurants giving away food for the chance that they might get paid, like the video pointed out.

So I don't get at all why designers would want to do that to themselves and their industry, I get that there will always be a need for the cheapest fastest option, I get the attracting of it from the consumer side, I just don't get why SO many designers are so willing to go that route. just for the chance to "win" peanuts. So when someone calls and says what this guy said to me. I know the respect is not there, and chances are if I could even convince him to spend some extra money and properly design a logo, there are bound to be other problems down the line, when he obviously undervalues us as not only designers but businessmen.

 

[CES020]

I just don't get why SO many designers are so willing to go that route. just for the chance to "win" peanuts.

Our shop is about 10 minutes from a huge college (30,000 students, I think) that's well known for their graphic arts program. We posted a job listing probably 4 years ago and had over 100 people apply for it, most all of them from that college. The vast majority of them were either unemployed or working in something not graphic design related. My guess is that those sites that offer those services are slam packed with kids with a degree in graphic design that can't find a job, so they're just doing what they can to make some extra cash.

I think any time someone devalues their services, it's harmful. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "I work from home, so my overhead is really low, which allows me to charge lower prices". When I try to explain the concept of the market setting the price, not your expenses, I never get far.

 

[TyrantDesigner]

I dunno, I do a lot of freelancing and spend a good portion of time placing bids on sites when it's late at night and I'm trying to crank through shows like Supernatural on Netflix (8 seasons w/ 22 episodes each season... youch). I almost never do a competition unless it's a sealed competition (you don't see anyone elses work) and it interests me because it's not something you see every day (you know, pull out the wacom to make a 5 minute digital sketch of a gorilla using a vape machine) ... even then it's got to be high enough that I can justify that over my own work. But I don't do spec work 99% of the time ... I will do style sheets for things like childrens books, people looking for shirt illustrators, illustrations for marketing, etc .. but it's nothing they can use nor is it special by any means.

For example, the attached image is the most a customer will see from me. This was just a 5 minute illustrator sketch that I sent a guy because he was looking for deer illustrations that looked inked but needed to be vector format. the original was just black linework since it was going on drinkware, just let the guy know the final will have more than 5 minutes of time and will have cleaner line work.

.. after I sent the black and while line art to him, i then changed it to a dark blue, and did a light blue underlay (another 5 minutes) because I thought it was an interesting screen print design example for one of my classes I. (2 birds, one stone) ... ended up getting the gig, so 10 minutes of eff around time and 10 minutes of correspondence when I'm in my underwear on my couch ... worth my time.

If a customer calls up wanting to see a full logo before I get the job. Nope. Art fee or order placed before I start. I will gladly send them samples of work I've done in the past or if it's a massive illustration job do a style sample ... but I won't just do artwork to do artwork.

Heck, I'm just tired of the ones wanting me to do $5-10 logos because 'it's great for your portfolio and I will spread the word that you did awesome work' ... eff that, eff him/her, eff their logo. I get one a week calling me up asking me to either donate my design time, be a creative partner in some half cocked project for 15% of the revenue earned on sales, or wants me to match my money with some dude in India because he saw he could get a complete website done for $10 ... but wants to give the money to someone local instead. That or the ones that want me to completely illustrate something like a pig flying through the air by the power of his own farts ... but doesn't want to pay for my time to make something that is near realistic and full color in vector .. and damned if he doesn't pop his head in my shop every 2 or 3 weeks to see if I changed my mind on that art fee. (God, I hate that guy)

 

[John Butto]

perspective..

If you are on the sites that hold the competition for logo design and one is for a prize of $50, you want to work fast and not spend a lot of hours doing the design. If it takes you 15 minutes and you win, you could say that is $200 an hour. If you do not win, well the loss is not that great.
Now lets say you enter the 2014 CorelDraw International Design Contest and it takes you about 2 weeks to do a design. At $50 an hour for a 40 hour week is $2,000, 2 weeks, well do the math. 2014 winners in all the categories are Russia, Brazil, Indonesia, Brazil (again) and Taiwan.

At the beginning of the last century I am sure someone in the Farrier industry was telling all his fellow workers that with the coming of the automobile that things were going to change. He was not talking about overseas people coming in but of progress of everyone owning a car. Sure there is a niche for Farriers today, in fact they make really good money, there is just not a need for them as there once was. And of course the automobile opened up a huge industry in the United States.
So let us use the automobile industry as an example instead of the Restaurant, because that deals in eating, which is something we have to do to survive and logo design is not a necessity. Person walks into the showroom, how many of those people end up buying a car, bet the percentage is pretty low. It is part of the business people, get use to it.

I am not a doomsday advocate and telling everyone the sky is falling, and a wave of foreigners are taking over and I do not put on my red white and blue shirt on every time I go on those sites. I do not have a problem with Hadji on a computer in India. You have to tune your skills and not just do Shutterstocking every time you need an idea.

 

[visual800]

this whole business has gone to hell, as far as design. We are no longer a custom business. more and more jobs are going to quick and easy instead of effective advertising. No one appreciate the craft of design anymore. we designers have become just as disposable as this world we live in. this buiness is quickly becoming NO MORE FUN.

 

[Joe Diaz]

If you are on the sites that hold the competition for logo design and one is for a prize of $50, you want to work fast and not spend a lot of hours doing the design. If it takes you 15 minutes and you win, you could say that is $200 an hour. If you do not win, well the loss is not that great.
Now lets say you enter the 2014 CorelDraw International Design Contest and it takes you about 2 weeks to do a design. At $50 an hour for a 40 hour week is $2,000, 2 weeks, well do the math. 2014 winners in all the categories are Russia, Brazil, Indonesia, Brazil (again) and Taiwan.

The HUGE difference between the two is that for a contest like CorelDRAW's semi-annual contest, a designer can submit almost anything, in fact he or she could submit a design they had already been hired and paid to create, which many designers do. The large majority of work submitted is submitted into the fine art category with a wide range of subject maters, chosen by the designer or artist not CorelDRAW. The designer isn't answering the demands of the client, the designer only answers to his or her own creativity which helps us grow as craftsmen, and is more rewarding and fun. Or let's take the contest Fred is holding on this site, it's different too. Mainly because it is for a make believe organization meant for fun, judged by our peers, other professionals in this industry, not some plumber that doesn't know the first thing about design who is simply looking for something cheap.

The difference is that these spec work "contests" devalue our profession, because these are real businesses paying one person out of a hundred or so chump change to develop their brand or design, something they should hire professionals to do. They ask for something specific, set the parameters and create an environment that removes many of the essential parts of the design process.

So yeah, huge difference.

I am not a doomsday advocate and telling everyone the sky is falling

No, what you are saying is that you recognize that we have created a bad environment for creatives to become successful, and rather than advocate against that, your going to participate. And I would argue that the problem isn't so much that our industry has opened up to this global market, because even if it were just that and spec work wasn't acceptable means of designing, you would still have more designers, foreign and domestic that aren't doing work for free. So I'm much less concerned with the idea of designers in India charging less than me and more concerned with creative people around the world being treated differently than other professions and that some of those same designers are actually a major part of perpetuating that environment.

 

[Dan Antonelli]

This is a great blog post about this topic.

https://medium.com/@sachagreif/in-t...d-design-can-make-the-difference-2fdeb90d390a

 

[John Butto]

Huge

"The HUGE difference between the two is that for a contest like CorelDRAW's semi-annual contest, a designer can submit almost anything" Joe Diaz quote.
Your interpretation of what I type in words seems that no matter what I say you will bend them to your arguments.
Let us take your word "spec" and the huge difference. Fred is holding a contest, I put "almost anything" I wanted in his specs, twice, and for free. Fine arts, graphic design, signs, computer, oil paints whatever, it is all the same.

I feel, and do not get your mother and Fred involved and get me kicked off the forum, like Gino, that you are being hypocritical.
You enter the Corel contests, you showed us your work, wanted us to vote for you, competing with the world, and for what, money, fame, desire or whatever motivates a person. What is the difference with the $50 gang bang logo sites, money, not for me anyway, it is a study in what is out there, I do not have any fear of winning or losing, it is called competition.

And now you nitpicking on what is right or wrong or if it is respectful to fellow artist on how to handle things in a different situation with business, art, design etc. Sorry, but I hold my freedom to express my art any way I feel like it, if someone does not like it and has control of the situation they can paint over it or run me out of town.

 

[SignManiac]

two characters: It is a free world so anyone can do what they want. The world is changing and it will never go back to the good ole days. Bend or snap. I'm just glad that I'm older and won't be doing this stuff in ten years and by then, the sign business will be pretty well played out. Technology is knocking at every door and people are going to become less important. It's Walmarts fault

 

[Joe Diaz]

"The HUGE difference between the two is that for a contest like CorelDRAW's semi-annual contest, a designer can submit almost anything" Joe Diaz quote.
Your interpretation of what I type in words seems that no matter what I say you will bend them to your arguments.
Let us take your word "spec" and the huge difference. Fred is holding a contest, I put "almost anything" I wanted in his specs, twice, and for free. Fine arts, graphic design, signs, computer, oil paints whatever, it is all the same.

I feel, and do not get your mother and Fred involved and get me kicked off the forum, like Gino, that you are being hypocritical.
You enter the Corel contests, you showed us your work, wanted us to vote for you, competing with the world, and for what, money, fame, desire or whatever motivates a person. What is the difference with the $50 gang bang logo sites, money, not for me anyway, it is a study in what is out there, I do not have any fear of winning or losing, it is called competition.

And now you nitpicking on what is right or wrong or if it is respectful to fellow artist on how to handle things in a different situation with business, art, design etc. Sorry, but I hold my freedom to express my art any way I feel like it, if someone does not like it and has control of the situation they can paint over it or run me out of town.

Oh GOD more drama. Is that the running theory now, that I got Gino kicked off of Signs101? Wow, you are more paranoid than he is. I never asked anyone to boot Gino, you will have to take that one up with Fred, I have no dog in that fight, and certainly hold no power over Fred and his decision to do so. I'm not really on here all that often, Gino was. Even if I did want him gone (which I never told Fred I did) Why would Fred listen to me over a guy who was on 101 more than anyone else? So don't turn me into the bad guy for that one, It seems to me Gino is the reason Gino is no longer here. Not me.

And I'm not being hypocritical I explained the main difference between spec work and other design competitions. If you are still having a hard time understanding the difference go back to my last post and read it again.

 

[Rick]

Oh GOD more drama. Is that the running theory now, that I got Gino kicked off of Signs101? Wow, you are more paranoid than he is. I never asked anyone to boot Gino, you will have to take that one up with Fred, I have no dog in that fight, and certainly hold no power over Fred and his decision to do so. I'm not really on here all that often, Gino was. Why would Fred listen to me over a guy who was on 101 more than anyone else? So don't turn me into the bad guy for that one, It seems to me Gino is the reason Gino is no longer here. Not me.

And I'm not being hypocritical I explained the main difference between spec work and other design competitions. If you are still having a hard time understanding the difference go back to my last post and read it again.

No one believes you got Gino kicked off...
You are not a hypocrite...

The math is...
If one designer spends 15 minutes to make 50 bucks...
that designer only made 50 bucks... not 200.00.
Interesting that if they lose the contest, they only
lose 15 minutes and not 200 bucks

I've seen the stats on those sites, most of the really
good successful crowdsourcing designers struggle to
win 5% of their entries. I think if I joined a site like
that full-time, then I think I can expect to win 5%
of my entries, but lets say I win 10% If I crank out
32 logos a day, and I win 10%, I can expect $150.00
a day... that's chump change. Then I would have to
design 1920 logos in a year... now as much as I like
designing logos, the fun would be gone after a few
months.

The devaluation of designers work is that overall
100's of thousands of hours are being spent with
no compensation.

My beef with cheap design is...
They'll spend 7k for the lit sign out front
1000's on a wrap
1000's to hundreds of thousands on developing their
business, hell, even spend thousands on advertising
and then chump out on a logo...

My belief for the reason crowdsourcing is working is not
that it's cheap... but it's hard shopping for design.
Even if people used the yellow pages, than what do you look
for? And even if the person is somewhat educated, finding
a decent designer from the local choices is still difficult. Sign
shops and printing houses are not great places to get quality
graphic design.

For designers... the only thing i can see being of any benefit
is that a designer does not have to get off their fat a$s and look
for clients, they are gathered in one spot.

An ADA room ID, 3' x 6' banner, or 10 computer cut stickers
should never cost more than a logo.

 

[Rick]

It's mind boggling the hours wasted... and how
much money is in it for the host.