Printing media 101

[Colin]

At last! I have found a buyer for my boat, and soon it will be time to pull the trigger on a new Roland SP300i. Though I've been in the sign business a long time, this will be my first printer. As I am a one-man operation, and not a high-production shop, I'd like to keep the rolls of materials which I'll have to buy to a minimum. I also want to avoid mucking around with profiling with the different brands. I just want to get the profiling nailed with one brand and stick with it.

So I would like to ask your advice on:

1) What brand of white vinyl I should use with this machine.

2) Should I have different matte/gloss levels, or just stick with gloss? Heck, I don't even know if they offer it in different sheens!

3) Can a guy use calendered for everything (except boats) and not need to stock cast?

4) Same goes for laminate: Brand? Gloss/matte/semi gloss?

5) Same goes for the best (30") banner material for this machine.






Any other tips are very much appreciated.

 

[R08]

Congrats on pulling the plug on printer Colin,
I also run a small shop and i can empathize with what your up against.

I have an older Roland (Sc540) and they are an excellent investment (went from a Mutoh Outdoor)

I use the Oracal 3165ra for cheap signs ... coro or temporaty.
I match that with 210 laminate if needed.
I use Oracal 3551ra for vehicle stuff with 290 laminate

I've used the 3M controltac for some wraps I've done. As well as 3551ra with 290 (I'll probly get blasted for that)

 

[sfr table hockey]

I would take a hard look at a larger 54" printer if possible. You might find that the difference is worth the $$. You will find that request for the 4' x 8' banner or sign comes up a lot.

As for media, I have found that cheaper vinyl (oracal 3641 cal) is much harder to print on than a better media (751 cast ( I know this is not meant to print on with solvent but works great)). I also found that matte vinyl prints real nice for me. I use a converted CJ 500 so with a newer printer you may have less print issues on cheaper media. Laying down thin media is harder than thicker.

 

[Gino]

When you're talking pennies difference per square foot.... it doesn't really matter much what you buy.

For adhesive backed vinyls:
I would stock one low end roll for quick down and dirty jobs. Keep plenty of middle of the road on hand for the bulk of your jobs and then one high end roll. Have matching laminate.

Banners:
Keep a 10-oz, 13-oz and double sided block out 19 oz

You might want to keep a synthetic paper roll in stock.

According to how many windows you intend to do.... possibly some perf material.

As for profiling, you'll eventually find, it's not going to be as easy as you think. You're probably going to buy various manufacturers, but.... and this is a big but, this profiling your various materials on a VersaCamm is quite easy and it'll take four extra seconds. There's very little to memorize and you just have to click on the profile and some generic profiles work as well as the 100% speced out ones.

Head heights is probably the one thing you have to remember to change if you're using one machine for all printing. That will be your key to most head strikes and probably prolong the life of your heads by keeping up with it.

Don't sweat it. Usually a nice media package will come along with the purchase of your printer and you can set everything up at that point and gradually add some as you feel comfortable. We got about a $4,500 with our CJ and around $4,000 with our Versa and quite a bit with our flatbed. Our small thermal, if I remember right was about $1,000.

Knowing you, I realize it's not an early Christmas present for you so just plain old Good Luck with it. ​

 

[Colin]

I would take a hard look at a larger 54" printer if possible. You might find that the difference is worth the $$. You will find that request for the 4' x 8' banner or sign comes up a lot.

Thanks for the reply. I know what you mean, I've heard this a number of times, but I've thought about this more than you can imagine, and the 30" is the right fit for me for numerous reasons. For those prints larger than 29", I can always sub those out, or do them myself with an overlap.

 

[Colin]

When you're talking pennies difference per square foot.... it doesn't really matter much what you buy.

I'm not too concerned about the price, rather I would like to strive towards having & using one vinyl for printing, maybe two max. It'll take me a long time to go through a roll, so I don't want a bunch of rotten vinyl that I have to throw out.

For adhesive backed vinyls:
I would stock one low end roll for quick down and dirty jobs. Keep plenty of middle of the road on hand for the bulk of your jobs and then one high end roll.

This is the scenerio I am trying to avoid. Would you say that what I'm striving for isn't realistic?

Have matching laminate.

What do you mean?




Thanks for all your other comments.........

 

[MikePro]

have one economy for cheapo projects, for which I use MacTac @ ~$0.28/sq.ft and if you want to keep inventory down, just stick with the best high performance vinyl... IJ180Cv3 @ ~$1.00/sq.ft. Can use for wraps, walls, .... anything. Oracal 3551 RA is also pretty good at a bit less, @ ~ $0.65/sq.ft but I wouldn't trust it to wrap as its designed for flat surfaces/simple curves.
(controltac/rapidair/air egress/ etc. is HIGHLY recommended with printeables as it saves you a crapload of time during the application process.)

always match the laminates to the vinyl, as they are designed to expand/shrink at the same rate and makes your graphic last longer AND you can keep the manufacturer warranty in your sales pitch.

 

[Colin]

Oracal 3551 RA is also pretty good at a bit less, @ ~ $0.65/sq.ft but I wouldn't trust it to wrap as its designed for flat surfaces/simple curves.
(controltac/rapidair/air egress/ etc. is HIGHLY recommended with printeables as it saves you a crapload of time during the application process.)

I don't foresee myself doing wraps.

Always match the laminates to the vinyl, as they are designed to expand/shrink at the same rate and makes your graphic last longer

Ahh, ok. That makes sense. Thanks.

 

[Gino]

Okay, I'll bite. What do you intend to get a printer for if most anything mentioned is nothing you'll be doing or using in a reasonable amount of time ??

Seriously, if you're getting a printer so you have better control over deadlines, I would suggest prioritizing better, planning ahead and outsourcing.

If you're getting a printer and only going to stock a few rolls of media, you might be doing your customers a disservice, by only giving them that which you stock and it might not be what the job calls for in durability or cost effectiveness.

You might be trying to dissect this to a point that your quality control will suffer because of your stubbornness to stock properly. If you have a niche market, then you might be talking a different story, but there's been no mention of that, so you make it hard to help you.

Based on recent threads/posts by you and your general profile, you'll probably be inventorying about $1,500 to $2,000 worth of media and maybe $1,100 of ink at any given time. That's based on a rather small need from a small machine [30"].

Owning a printer is a little like having a screen printing shop. Any screen printer worth their salt will have in stock many colors of ink. However, that same owner must also stock that same color in various medias....... aqueous, enamels, all-purpose, UV inks, GV inks, lacquer inks, corogloss, fast dry, solvent inks this series, that series and it gores on. Well, your printer has one ink and the media you put through it along with the specialized profile and heat controls is what's gonna make it bite in and hold or just be another flash in the pan push a button print shop.

Just some food for thought.

 

[tomence]

Hey Lyle what's happening. Since i sold the converted FJ52 i started subbing out my work to a Roland dealer and thinking that if they print my files on a new printer like the XC or VP or the new VS the prints will look way better than what i was getting with my FJ. To my surprise my prints were not any better. I really thought that a $30,000 printer will solve the problem, but the only thing that expensive priner solved was the speed. That's all. Gloss vinyl is hard on any printer i think. Matte will always print better and all depends on what brand of vinyl you use. I found that prints on Avery 2120 matte i belive was they looked better than prints on Oracal 3651 Gloss.

I would take a hard look at a larger 54" printer if possible. You might find that the difference is worth the $$. You will find that request for the 4' x 8' banner or sign comes up a lot.

As for media, I have found that cheaper vinyl (oracal 3641 cal) is much harder to print on than a better media (751 cast ( I know this is not meant to print on with solvent but works great)). I also found that matte vinyl prints real nice for me. I use a converted CJ 500 so with a newer printer you may have less print issues on cheaper media. Laying down thin media is harder than thicker.

 

[Colin]

Okay, I'll bite. What do you intend to get a printer for if most anything mentioned is nothing you'll be doing or using in a reasonable amount of time?

I don't foresee doing full wraps for a few of reasons. 1) There is a guy in my area who almost gives the stuff away. 2) I am a sole operator, and while I could be wrong, I imagine that doing a wrap by ones self would be very difficult. 3) I am not located in a highly populated area, so demand isn't high.

The printer would get used for the wide variety of everything else.

Seriously, if you're getting a printer so you have better control over deadlines, I would suggest prioritizing better, planning ahead and outsourcing.

That's what I do now, but I have come to a point where having no control over when my outsourced prints can be ready is a pain. And because I haven't had a printer, I haven't promoted printed matter as I will when I have one of my own.

If you're getting a printer and only going to stock a few rolls of media, you might be doing your customers a disservice, by only giving them that which you stock and it might not be what the job calls for in durability or cost effectiveness.

I'm not saying that I am going to only stock a few rolls of media, I'm asking if it's feasible.

You might be trying to dissect this to a point that your quality control will suffer because of your stubbornness to stock properly.

What stubborness? I'm asking questions, not maintaining or defending a stance.



I guess I'm asking what brands & glosses have proven to work well for the most applications, as I imagine that by now the reputations of the various brands are common knowledge amounst those in the printing trenches. I guess I'm hoping to hear something like: "Don't use brand XYZ vinyl - it's junk" or: "These three brands have these characteristics and work well."

I gather that digital media must be purchased by the roll, not the yard, so it's a very real thing for me to think about.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I hear ya on the printer bit. Only printer I have now is for sublimation that I do. It's a long hard road for the one-two man shops. Let me know how this works out for you. I've been thinking about a printer as well, but I need business to boost up before I can get anymore then hopes and dreams about that.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[R08]

If I had to stock only one I'd go with Oracal 3551ra. Excellent all around product.
Easy to apply and priced right. And go with Oracal 220 laminate.
It's a good place to start.

My guess is that once you start printing you'll be surprised at how much material you will go through. I thought I'd only stock one or two items but I'm up to around 7-8.

 

[Gino]

If I had to stock only one I'd go with Oracal 3551ra. Excellent all around product.
Easy to apply and priced right. And go with Oracal 220 laminate.
It's a good place to start.

My guess is that once you start printing you'll be surprised at how much material you will go through. I thought I'd only stock one or two items but I'm up to around 7-8.

That's kinda my point. You'll have a guy come in and want trade show media for a header. Tomorrow two banners for outside heavy-duty usage. At the same time, someone will order magnetics with a laminate. Someone's going to order a few 4' x 8's and you'll need to not only print it, laminate it, but apply it, too. Next, some person will ask you for the back window of their pickup or car.... now you need perf. Oops, the guy just called back and said the heavy-duty banners only have to be 11oz material, but you already ordered the heavy-duty. Most people expect that you're gonna be like a convenience store and all you have to do is put something in the machine, push a button and watch it come out the other side. They'll expect if you're gonna act like a sign shop, you're gonna have what most sign shops have immediately at their disposal.

Perhaps I'm spoiled. We have just about everything in stock to meet anyone's needs in vinyl and in substrates. You'll either have to do the same or be pissing customers off pretty much of the time. You can create your arsenal over a period of time, but you're eventually going to have to get quite an array of media or you'll be losing customers because of your not stocking better.

We stock a wide variety of 3M and Oracal products on many levels of needs. Stubborn might've been the wrong word, but it gets tiresome trying to answer cryptic questions.

No matter what your question, you always have a different view from the vast majority. I'm sorry you find my answers mostly useless. I imagine I'll just stop trying to help as many others have and go the same path of many others around here.

Good Luck.........................
​

 

[Colin]

That's kinda my point. You'll have a guy come in and want trade show media for a header. Tomorrow two banners for outside heavy-duty usage. At the same time, someone will order magnetics with a laminate. Someone's going to order a few 4' x 8's and you'll need to not only print it, laminate it, but apply it, too. Next, some person will ask you for the back window of their pickup or car.... now you need perf. Oops, the guy just called back and said the heavy-duty banners only have to be 11oz material, but you already ordered the heavy-duty. Most people expect that you're gonna be like a convenience store and all you have to do is put something in the machine, push a button and watch it come out the other side.

I fully understand all that, but I'm asking about where a good place to start would be. Why does it have to be all or nothing?

Perhaps I'm spoiled. We have just about everything in stock to meet anyone's needs in vinyl and in substrates.

That's great, but surely you can appreciate that no two sign shops are the same, especially one-man operations compared to bigger shops.

You'll either have to do the same or be pissing customers off pretty much of the time.

Or, just order the required media when needed. I think my O/P has been fairly clear.

You can create your arsenal over a period of time, but you're eventually going to have to get quite an array of media or you'll be losing customers because of your not stocking better.

That may be true for your particular business, but I don't think it necessarily is true for everyone.

We stock a wide variety of 3M and Oracal products on many levels of needs. Stubborn might've been the wrong word, but it gets tiresome trying to answer cryptic questions.

Cryptic questions? WTF?

No matter what your question, you always have a different view from the vast majority.

That's not true. Why would you say this?

I'm sorry you find my answers mostly useless.

Who said that? Do you see where YOU are taking this?

I imagine I'll just stop trying to help as many others have and go the same path of many others around here.

Your reactions are perplexing. I start a post with cap in hand, and look at what you're now saying. Geesh!

 

[R08]

............. I'm sorry you find my answers mostly useless. I imagine I'll just stop trying to help as many others have and go the same path of many others around here.

Good Luck.........................
​

Well at least he answered you, Gino. I thought I was more direct but I feel the same way kinda. Or maybe he's got me on ignore?

 

[Colin]

Well at least he answered you, Gino. I thought I was more direct but I feel the same way kinda. Or maybe he's got me on ignore?

Geesh, I just can't win here. I didn't know you were expecting a reply, but thanks for the material advice.

 

[R08]

Geesh, I just can't win here. I didn't know you were expecting a reply, but thanks for the material advice.

It's all good Colin! It's all tongue in cheek.

It's just that I have a similar size of business. I'm in the same boat except I've been printing for around 3 years and I'm in the same temperature zone or close.

Have a good one Colin.

PS.. and Oracal 3551ra is a great place to start. It takes ink very well and one of the easiest vinyls to apply.

 

[astro8]

I can see where you're coming from Colin but I also see Gino's experience coming through in his posts.

The scenario he described is exactly the way it happens in this shop as well.

There is nothing more frustrating than not having the correct material (and plenty of it) on hand.

This is my suggestion...

Buy a 54" printer, after a couple months the 30" will be frustrating for all manner of reasons...size, material availability, pricing on material, nesting, speed etc, etc.

Stock a cheap gloss vinyl, an intermediate gloss vinyl and a some good cast for any vehicle stuff...( maybe half rolls if you can order it that way over there) You can always laminate in a matte or a gloss to acheive the desired result.

You need a banner as well. Poster paper, perf etc...you can order as need arises but let's hope that's not long off.

You'll be printing far more than you realise once you get up to speed and start replacing cut vinyl with printed jobs. You'll see & seize a lot more opportunities with the printer than you can foresee at this moment.

I see why Gino is a bit frustrated...he's trying to enlighten you. i bought my first printer a few years ago to do a few jobs here and there. Printing is only around 20% of what we do and before too long I had 2 and then 3 printers. I lose a lot of printable jobs on price as I'm not going to lower my prices but still manage to run 2. We buy our 'cheap vinyl' by the ton and have a separate dumpster just for the boxes and backing paper.

Don't limit yourself and goodluck...

 

[Malkin]

I'll jump in...

We have had our Roland vp540 for about 2 years, and these are basically the medias that we have decided to stock.

3M IJ180cv3 - Cast High Performance vinyl, Use for all jobs that are long term. Decals, vehicle graphics, signs, wraps (rare thing in our area) always laminated. (grey, opaque adhesive, air egress channels, clean removeability, conformable) Can be ordered in 25 yd rolls.

Oracal 3165ra - Calendered Intermediate vinyl, Use for most short term decals and signs. Laminate optional depending on the nature of the job. (grey, opaque adhesive, air egress channels)

Laminate: 3M 8518 - Cast, glossy. Always used with the cast vinyl, sometimes on the calendered as well. Can be ordered in 25 yd rolls.

Banner: Ultraflex JetFlex 13oz (Used a number of other brands, but this one had the best characteristics)

At least 90% of our digital print work boils down to those above materials.

Others that I frequently stock include:

Laminate: 3M 8520 - Cast, Matte (well, 3M calls it matte, but it's more like a satin finish)

Oracal 3621 Gloss - Calendered vinyl, grey opaque adhesive and easy removal adhesive

Oracal 3164 Matte - Calendered vinyl, good for short term or small interior jobs that want a matte finish. I also use this for quicky "paper" prints.

We also keep some reflective (3M IJ680cr) and some window perf (don't remember what kind)

We will certainly order in other things as needed, most can be had within 1-2 days.

I probably left something out, but I hope this helps.