Printing media 101

[MikePro]

+1 to matte > gloss
can't explain it, but glossy overlaminates seem "too glossy". The shine you see from different angles almost makes it unreadable/almost blinding. I still use glossy for certain projects, but 90% of the time it's matte.

Matte also helps hide the subtle flaws in prints like banding. You can have your printer dialed-in to the max and still be able to see the passes in certain colors (especially magenta), where matte helps "gausian blur" it smooth.

 

[Sticky Signs]

Colin,
I see that your in Canada. Where?
a few things.
1 - I'm a one man show too and I've got about 20+ rolls of various media in stock right now. Some of it was brought in for 1 job only. thats doesn't include all the lam I've got too. I'm not to worried about it because it will get used eventually plus I price the one-off jobs accordingly.
2 - I recommend checking out All Graphics Supplies. They have a good variety of materials on hand and best of all, they already have color profiles for most of their medias. Trust me, you do not want to get into making custom profiles. Personally, I like most of the stuff made by Rite Media.
3 - Some things to consider. The application - What's the vinyl going on? Longevity - indoor/outdoor? how long does it need to last? Ease of use - how does it print/cut, how does it stick? Does it require pre-mask or lam to install or is the vinyl thick enough to install on it's own? Answering these questions will help you select the proper material for the application. My personal "Go-to" vinyl is Rite-Media Econo Matt. It prints great, It's almost 4 mil think so it's easy to work. It will conform a little. The price is right and for me (film industry mostly) it doesn't need to last long - although I've got some unlaminated prints that have been on vehicles for 3 years and still looks great.
Lastly, Do yourself a favor and reconsider your position on the 30" machine. You will out grow it much sooner than you think. Plus, a 30" roll takes up as much floor space as a 54" roll. Installing 30" or 54" vinyl is the same. All you need is good technique and practice.
I hope this helps.

 

[R08]

30" vs 54" Printer:

I was noodling with my floor plan on the computer last night, and it is possible that I could fit in a 54" printer, but it would be tight. Anyways, I'm wondering if there's anybody out there who uses a 54" printer all by themselves (with 54" rolls). Is it no issue at all, or would it be difficult and frustrating as I visualize it might be?

Yup.. all alone with my 54" SC540 and laminator. I agree with most, that you should go big or go home. Just think about it: Most substrates come in 4'x8'.
Very handy for billboards too.

I had a Mutoh Falcon which only took 48" material and only printed out to 46" or so... what a pita. Glad that's gone.

 

[Colin]

+1 to matte > gloss
can't explain it, but glossy overlaminates seem "too glossy". The shine you see from different angles almost makes it unreadable/almost blinding. I still use glossy for certain projects, but 90% of the time it's matte.

This will display my ignorance, but I was refering to the white vinyl print media, not the lam. Doesn't the white come in different sheens, or is it all the same, and then you choose the sheen of your lam?

Hey, stop rolling your eyes!

 

[gabagoo]

Thanks again for the last few comments. One thing that has been mentioned a few times is how the matte vinyl results in a better print than gloss. I find this counterintuitive as we all know the dramatically better prints one gets out of their desktop printer when using a glossy photo paper rather than regular paper. I know the analogy is flawed because the regular paper actually soaks in the ink, and vinyl doesn't, but why does matte offer a better result?


30" vs 54" Printer:

I was noodling with my floor plan on the computer last night, and it is possible that I could fit in a 54" printer, but it would be tight. Anyways, I'm wondering if there's anybody out there who uses a 54" printer all by themselves (with 54" rolls). Is it no issue at all, or would it be difficult and frustrating as I visualize it might be?

I do it solo... Vinyl rolls are not that heavy...manipulating them around can be a pain. the heaviest thing I have experienced is this 39" 150 yard roll of pet 15oz banner material I use for retractables. Man it is heavier than a full roll of banner 54". It's a good workout just bringing the roll upstairs.
Remember just because you have a 54" printer, you can buy smaller rolls as you see fit.

 

[Colin]

1 - I'm a one man show too and I've got about 20+ rolls of various media in stock right now. Some of it was brought in for 1 job only. thats doesn't include all the lam I've got too. I'm not to worried about it because it will get used eventually.

Doesn't it have a shelf life, just like regular vinyl?

2 Trust me, you do not want to get into making custom profiles.

Right. This was one of the main reasons for my O/P.

Lastly, Do yourself a favor and reconsider your position on the 30" machine. You will out grow it much sooner than you think. Plus, a 30" roll takes up as much floor space as a 54" roll. Installing 30" or 54" vinyl is the same. All you need is good technique and practice.

Yes, I'm really torn on this. It seems that a 30" is the right fit for a one-man operation, and that has been supported by a few on this thread, but I can certainly see how getting into the 48" capability would be nice, even if it is rarely utilized. I think I recall someone saying something about the difficulty of handling such big heavy logs and prints all by themselves.

 

[Colin]

Thanks Pat. I'm really wrestling with that right now. It's a difficult one.
In the past few years, I've only subbed-out one job that was larger than what the 30" will do, but then again, perhaps I could drum up that larger work. But, due to how brutaly competitive things are (with some guys nearly giving it away) maybe I'm in dreamland with that thought.

The 54" is also $6000.00 more! I'd have to do a whole lot of large prints to pay for that. So the scenerio where I sub-out those rare large jobs seems the wisest route. And the 30" fits just beautifully in my shop.

It's a toughy!

 

[SignStudent]

I'm wondering if there's anybody out there who uses a 54" printer all by themselves (with 54" rolls). Is it no issue at all, or would it be difficult and frustrating as I visualize it might be?

We used a 30" for like 1.5 years before I took over the business and it was awful. It's sooo much nicer being able to do seamless 4x8's and big banners now that I got the 54". I run the shop by myself, no employees, and have no trouble handling the large rolls. You'll regret the 30" in the long run.

 

[Colin]

You mentioned you had never really advertised digital printing...it might be a good idea to start before you actually get the printer to see what the demand is like. Who knows... you may find tons of requests for 4' x 8's and larger prints and be able to justify the extra $6K or you may choose to stick with what will fit nicely in your space.

I'm glad you brought that up. For the last 9 or 10 years I have advertised that I do LFP on my site, but I've just farmed it out, so I don't anticipate a sudden increase in small, medium or large printed jobs. I'm just going to have to promote it more than ever. There's a lot of sign shops in my area, and everyone has a printer, and it is cut-throat, so I need to be sober about the realities of how much volume I have done in the past and will likely do in the future.

 

[bpatrick3]

Hey Colin, I get where you are coming from and will not over analyze it. I will just answer the question you asked.
I use Oracal 3651 for most with 210 Gloss laminate as needed.
I use Oracal 3551ra with 290 Gloss laminate for long term and vehicle graphics.
But I would suggest that you buy that combo when needed, when I run out of the 3551ra/290 combo I wait until the next job calls for it before I buy more.
I did start to inventory some Mactac Gloss economy vinyl as my call for bumper/car decals has increased and the 3651 is to thin for people to apply and I do not want to get into pre masking decals.
I do not want to beat a dead horse but there are a lot of materials that are not available in 30" wide rolls, that may be one of the main issues with a 30" version, I am sure that you know that you can run ANY width material up to 54" on a 54" printer, so you could still inventory mostly 30" material, just a thought.
Good Luck

 

[GAC05]

Colin,
I am a one man show in the print production part of the business.
If you can swing it I would go 54" in a heartbeat.
My 1304 will do 52.5" bi-directional and while I don't print that many single images up to that limit I am constantly ganging copies and groups of images right up to the 52.5 to save time and material.
The larger printers are usually faster than the smaller ones and print time can make or break some projects.
I am not a high production shop but in the last 2 weeks I have run through 7 164' rolls of 40" banner, 4 rolls of 164' 54 vinyl and about 25 carts of ink.
I would have outsourced 6 of those rolls of banner if there had been enough lead time - but there wasn't.
The more flexibility in your gear the more you can take on.

Go big

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Colin]

......there are a lot of materials that are not available in 30" wide rolls, that may be one of the main issues with a 30" version.

Really? Like what? I was told that would be an issue with a 42" (VS) printer, but what's not available for a 30"?

Thanks for your other recommendations.

 

[bpatrick3]

Really? Like what? I was told that would be an issue with a 42" (VS) printer, but what's not available for a 30"?

Thanks for your other recommendations.

Alot of Mactac's are only 54", Dreamscapes wallpapers, some of Oracal's vinyls,ivivid paper has NO 30" material. I am not saying that there is not a solution for everything in 30". I am just saying that you may have to jump around to different manufactures for different things. Just trying to give all the pro's and con's, Not trying to be negative about 30"

 

[Colin]

Hmmmm..........ok, thanks for that. (and I wasn't aware of the Dreamscape product). So much to learn.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Alot of Mactac's are only 54", Dreamscapes wallpapers, some of Oracal's vinyls,ivivid paper has NO 30" material. I am not saying that there is not a solution for everything in 30". I am just saying that you may have to jump around to different manufactures for different things. Just trying to give all the pro's and con's, Not trying to be negative about 30"

Same thing ha happened a few times with trying to find 24" material for my HP printer. It can be found, I just have to go to a different vendor or trying to cut a bigger roll and cut it, which I have done, if it's a product that I really want to use versus the one that already fits the 24".

 

[gabagoo]

Hmmmm..........ok, thanks for that. (and I wasn't aware of the Dreamscape product). So much to learn.

Oh yea the wallpaper may be the easiest substrate to print on as due to the texturing you never can really detect abnormalities in the print.

 

[CanuckSigns]

We had a 30" machine here for 3 years before we got our 54", sure it was a bit of a pain doing 4x8 sheets but it's easy enough to manage. as for media, I would recommend getting a very cheap vinyl (Rite Media from All Graphics fits the bill) for any coro signs, it's nice and thick so it's easy to lay down without laminating it for down and dirty golf signs etc.

Also as others have said, our go-to vinyl here is Oracal 3651 with 210 laminate, and for longer term jobs it's 3551 w/ 290 lam. both of these are available in 30" rolls from AGS (can you tell where I buy most of my media from?) Banner is UltraFlex, go with a name brand here, we have had nothing but bad luck with off-shore banner material, there are no 2 rolls that are ever alike.

 

[Colin]

Thanks very much for all this.

We had a 30" machine here for 3 years before we got our 54", sure it was a bit of a pain doing 4x8 sheets but it's easy enough to manage.

Do you mean that it was a pain to do 4x8s with the 30", or a pain physically handling the 54" media?

 

[sardocs]

I do lots of 4x8s with my sp300. Its like partial wraps. You quickly learn to design with that in mind.

 

[advisionsigns]

We're a three person shop but I do all the printing myself. We have a XC-540 and loading and unloading the material is not much of an issue. We're in the process of finishing our printer room addon to the shop but at the moment it is cramped into our vinyl room. Aside from knocking the occasional cd of the shelf I don't have any troubles with 50yd 54" material. I'm 6 feet tall and about 200 lbs. Lifting the new rolls can occasionally be slightly awkward but never a chore. Maybe if you're a smaller framed person things might be different.

As for media I'm rather new have only had the printer for maybe 4-5 months but pretty much only have it for one client and they have it running about 75% of the week so I only buy 3m IJ180cv3 and the 3m 8519 luster laminate. I just do all the misc jobs on that and the customers get a little bonus due to my unwillingness to stock cheaper vinyl and swap laminate for small products. My main client more than pays for the materials so I can discount a bit for small/temporary jobs. I dont anticipate accumulating too much oddball material simply because I really don't have the time to print for very many other customers right now. Though that's just my specific situation and surely wont work for everyone.

Oh and as for dealing with the wider material alone I may not be the best to ask as my customers prints are not often a full sheet wide. They order lots of things 24-36" wide and the rip organizes them on the sheet to best conserve space and after lam and contour cutting I just cut them up into manageable chunks and weed and mask that way. I hardly ever have to break out our 48" mask. Application would really come down to whether or not you are doing it flat on a table or vertical as doing a very large print flat would be much more difficult than if it were a vertical application.

Hope that helps some

 

[Colin]

Yes, very helpful - thanks! Throughout each 24 hr period, I go back & forth on what machine to get.

I find it interesting that Roland charges SIX THOUSAND DOLLARS more for the same machine but just a longer version. Where's the 6K?

 

[CanuckSigns]

Not sure if it is still the case but the SP300V does not have adjustable head height like the 54" machine does, it's not a feature we use very often but it's handy for thicker materials and that pre-grommetted banner material.