reflective peeling off within a year

[bob peach]

I am the sign shop manager at Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks. We have a serious problem with most of our signage where the reflective vinyl is peeling off in as little as one winter season.
Most of our directional signage has an aluminum substate with brown reflective background and white reflective lettering. The problem is extreme and is not limited to the lettering, the background also peels. We are using 2 types of engineer grade vinyl and are investigating whether others have had similar problems and maybe found a solution.
One theory we are looking into is that the extreme weather here is causing the problem.. We get extreme amounts of snow in the upper regions of the park and the signs are buried under snow for long periods. Supposedly the freezing and thawing is pulling the vinyl down as the snow melts. The failures are always from the top down so this does seem plausible.
As we have been removing damaged signs in many cases the reflective seems to have delaminated. The face of the vinyl is peeled off and the silver remains.
Anyone with any similar problems or ideas can post or email me @ robert_peach @nps.gov
Thanks,
Bob

 

[SignosaurusRex]

Can you post pic's showing good detail of the peeling? What brand and grade of reflective material is being used? Is the Aluminum a treated, or non treated and if so what.

 

[SqueeGee]

Hi Bob,

What brand vinyl? Was the aluminum alodized?

 

[bob peach]

The signs manufactured in house are on !/8 mill finish aluminum. Vinyls are Nikkalite and 3M engineer grade. The problem also occurs on traffic signs from outside vendors in varying degrees.
I`m going to be out of town for several days and cannot access pictures until Wednesday. The top several inches of background peels off of most signs. The lettering if reflective ,delaminates and leaves the silver and the ahesive. On traffic signs the black lettering peels off from the top down.
By chance I ran into Roger Bailey (Rapid Tac)in the Park and he came to the shop and saw what we have happening. He had some suggestions for changing the way they have been prepping materials.
One of the ideas the shop has tried is putting a clear laminate over the whole sign to eliminate the edges of the letters catching the freezing and thawing snow. The jury is still out on that. It can only work if it wraps the top of the signs .
I`ve only been here for a couple months but I have been manufacturing signs for over 30 years and have never seen this type of failure. I`m just looking for ideas at this time. There are a lot of signs here and they should last much longer than they presently do.
Thanks,
Bob

 

[Techman]

have they been edged sealed?

 

[SignosaurusRex]

Roger!

 

[Pat Whatley]

Just out of curiosity have you called 3M and Nikkalite? I know the people at Nikkalite went overboard trying to help with a minor problem we were having and had a solution for us almost immediately and I've always heard good things about 3M in the same department. Might be worth a couple of phone calls.

 

[Jillbeans]

Good to hear from you, Bob.

I would blame the snow, especially since they are delaminating from the top down.
I read of vehicle graphics in the UK peeling off like that last winter or the winter before due to heavy snow laying on them for a period of a few weeks.
Since you are a skilled carpenter, would you be able to make some sort of wooden topper for these things? (what are there, probably 5,000 of 'em right?)
I have about 40 lusterboard park signs with brown reflective faces (which I applied) they are still good after at least 4 years along my PA highway.
Love....Jill

 

[signmeup]

I have a van up here that won't keep vinyl on it's windows if it snows. If you figure it out, let me know!

 

[Billct2]

I'd suspect the being buried in the snow and then as the snow melts /freezes/melts it's getting at that top edge. I'd also talk to 3M and Nikkalite first, along with the vendors.
I can think of two suggestions, one have the signs printed, not lettered with cut vinyl, this will eliminate all those edges. Then look at edge sealing and/orcapping the top of the sign. There is an edge cap that fits .125 aluminum, it's like the edge cap for a car door.

 

[signmeup]

I'd suspect the being buried in the snow and then as the snow melts /freezes/melts it's getting at that top edge. I'd also talk to 3M and Nikkalite first, along with the vendors.
I can think of two suggestions, one have the signs printed, not lettered with cut vinyl, this will eliminate all those edges. Then look at edge sealing and/orcapping the top of the sign. There is an edge cap that fits .125 aluminum, it's like the edge cap for a car door.

That seems like a good solution. It would be nice to know what the problem is though.

 

[Gino]

Why two types of reflective ??

Are you using one for the background and the other for lettering ?? If so, that's probably not a good idea.

Usually when lettering peels from the top down, there is a culprit in play. Most likely some kind of a contaminant is getting on it. In addition, it's probably an air born contaminant. You say you're in a forest. Possibly some kind of mold, parasite or even tannins from the trees falls and sticks to the signs, when it snows and is packed on there, it might be forcing some chemical reaction with the edges and then gravity sort of takes it's toll.

I would sooner think if the freezing temperatures were the only culprit.... you'd have the problem at more than just the top down.

When you have tankers, vehicles and signs peeling from the top only..... it's usually something other than Mother Nature.

Is it happening more in one area than another ?? In other words, see if it's happening in clearings or more dense areas than other areas. Look around for some common denominator to where it's happening more than other areas.

What were you using before this started happening a year ago ??
Does regular vinyl hold up better then reflective ??
Do the bad ones face north, or east or whatever more than the ones that aren't bad ??
Signs facing north, usually take a beating , especially in a forest environment.
Is there any visible signs of anything growing.
Could it have been just a poor application method being used ??
Any new employees lately or around the time the failed ones were originally made ??

Lots of possibilities.

 

[bob peach]

Thanks for the replies.
This is extremely heavy snow, 30 plus feet and tightly packed from being blasted over the signs by huge rotary plows. The snow blast bends a lot of the signs even with wooden backers.
No the edges have not been sealed and that is an area that we are trying to address. The backs are painted to cover the bare aluminum but the edges are not. I`m not sure that latex will last on the small edge of the signs. I have been looking for a u channel edge cap that would be unobtrusive. I was wondering if there was a clear coat that would hold up over reflective? Probably not . We always clear coated our gold leaf on vehicles with dupont automotive clear with great results. small areas, much milder conditions on Cape Cod than here. I doubt if I would be allowed to use isocyanates here in CA. Most of these signs are 4x8`s.

I`ve been gathering info to present to the manufacturers. That is the next step. I just thought I would put this question out there and see what ideas others could come up with.
As far as printing goes, it seems worth investigating. At this time we try to do as much as we can in-house to keep costs down. With the budget crunch I can`t see a new printer purchase being approved right now.
Thanks again,
Bob

 

[ucmj22]

what if after the sign was finished it was laminated, and the edges wraped around to the back? just a thought.

 

[signmeup]

Flatbed print on reflective blank?

 

[John Butto]

"At this time we try to do as much as we can in-house to keep costs down".
Good to hear a government employee trying to save money, you can tell he is not in Congress.

 

[Gino]

Okay, another key to your possibilities.

Could the snow being plowed against your signs contain any salt or other snow removal agents in it when it gets banged up against your signs ??

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

Try NOT doing the application wet for starters. Second...use Cast not Calendared reflective...as well as laminate. The shrinkage is accellerated in the cold, causing the separation. Just my educated guess.

 

[Techman]

I suspect that the fabricator is trimming the edges of the vinyl after applying it to the substrate. That does not work well.

I had/have the same problems of reflective delam'ing when trimming around the edges using the substrate as a template after the vinyl was applied.
I also had the same troubles with lam'ed printed vinyl when using the substrate as a template to trim the edges.
I do not trim vinyl around the edges ever again. It sometimes leaves a mess of a redo later on. I feel it is the trim knife causing a microscopic ragged edge that contributes whatever element to a failure.

Try it yourself. Apply vinyl to a sheet of aluminum leaving some extra vinyl to trim. You will see vinyl edges wrinkle just a little and will not adhere correctly.

 

[Sign Works]

My thoughts on this issue -

* If your using a wet application, don't.

* If by "Mill Finish" you mean bare, you might want to try a prefinished aluminum for a stronger adhesion.

* Use only highest grade reflective vinyls available.

* To avoid layering you could have text screenprinted onto reflective material.

* To prevent peeling you could have say an 1/8" - 1/4" inset from the edge on your background then apply a protective top coat of automotive polyeurothane clear. Sounds extreme but it also sounds like these signs are exposed to some pretty extreme elements & punishment so maybe that's what it's gonna take to protect them.