-
I want to thank all the members that have upgraded your accounts. I truly appreciate your support of the site monetarily. Supporting the site keeps this site up and running as a lot of work daily goes on behind the scenes. Click to Support Signs101 ...
vinyl, laminate, outgassing and alligator bubbles
- Thread starter crowntrophy24
- Start date
That's funny. Hey, if my Latex Printer (L25500) keeps running hot and damaging my print heads (replacing 4 of them this week) then I may think about rigging it up to outgas vinyl. Or, if that fails, perhaps a Pizza oven! It could make some 61" wide Pizzas. :Big Laugh
Sabretooth
New Member
Greetings all: I ran across a similar situation the other day that had me scratching my head for a few days so I decided to do some experimentation. I recently installed some Avery HP700 3 mil calendered and some 3M SC50 3 mil calendered on a 16' x 3' piece of polycarbonate Lexan for a backlit fluorescent sign and all looked great. After a few days the entire panel had varying degrees of the "alligator skin" bubbling all over it and I needed to understand why. I took one of my Lexan end cuts that still had the blue protective film on it and applied some test strips of the same vinyl using the same premask immediately after removing the blue film, one set installed dry, one cleaned with Rapid Tac II and applied dry and one applied wet using Rapid Tac II. I waited 24 hours to test the outgassing theory and applied another pair of strips dry and put the piece outside for a week. After a week, every one of the test strips looks exactly the same with no signs of bubbling which leads me to believe that it's possible the bubbling was caused by the Polycarbonate panel being rolled up in my shop until I was ready to install the graphics, I had unrolled it, cut it to size and began applying vinyl right away. I thought I'd pass this along because it fits with some of the posters here saying they let a panel sit 24hrs before doing any work on it and it may in fact have nothing to do with outgassing after all. Some of the bubbles are under 1/8" wide lines that go across the whole line so it's not trapped gas under there and I pulled up a piece of vinyl to look for moisture and it was completely dry.
Maybe this helps, maybe not but I felt it was worth sharing just in case it saves somebody else the brainache/heartache trying to figure out what they did wrong.
Maybe this helps, maybe not but I felt it was worth sharing just in case it saves somebody else the brainache/heartache trying to figure out what they did wrong.
I'm curious. To those saying its a problem with the application of the vinyl and not out gassing.
In what way can vinyl be applied incorrectly to get this result? If the vinyl goes on smooth and then the next day there are bubbles. What is being done incorrectly in the application process to cause the bubbles?
Everyone that is claiming application failure has yet to say what the failure is and what causes it.
In what way can vinyl be applied incorrectly to get this result? If the vinyl goes on smooth and then the next day there are bubbles. What is being done incorrectly in the application process to cause the bubbles?
Everyone that is claiming application failure has yet to say what the failure is and what causes it.
Sign Works
New Member
I encountered this bubble situation on polycarbonate only one time. Had two 8'x8' panels to do, both panels were cut from the same roll stock. Applied transluscent cut vinyl to first panel (dry app) and sat panel on back of truck face up in sun, finished second panel and laid it on top of the first panel with a soft blanket in between the two panels. Drove to job site, installed top panel and when I lifted the blanket the first panel had a gazillion tiny bubbles. These panels were going in a pole sign 30' up, bubbles were undetectable from the ground. Several years later we went back to change one logo on the panels, the one panel still had the gazillion bubbles while the other did not, very odd.
Techman
New Member
It has been said so many times over the last 20 years. Anyone with any experience will know these rules. Good applicators will not have any bubbles, nor pickle skin, nor any other failure. The vinyl will lie as if it were paint. Amateurs and noobs will have pickle skin no matter what.
1) bad squeegee. It's got tiny nicks and scratches in the edges. The tool was not sharpened correctly.
2) improper techniques. Bad technique will compress air under the vinyl in tiny pockets. After a while the air will gently lift the vinyl and show pickle skin. Some is much worse than others.
3) a sprints of weasel P!ss made from a witches brew of the wrong soap, too much soap, dirty water, adding some strange concoction of window cleaner,,,
Sprits of weasel p!ss that lays a film of bubbles of all sizes very from microscopic to full size. Its full of bubbles. Soap suds all over the place. Lay vinyl over it and the bubbles will compress and later reappear when the pressure overcomes the adhesive..
4) One fails to FLOOd the surface with a good app fluid that uses the correct surfacant. Not just a sprits. Flooding will stop the suds.
5) pulling the app tape straight up. Thus stretching the vinyl underneath.
Out gassing is a myth. It is just a term used as an excuse to blame something other than the installer. Or, it is used when the vinyl OEM tries to escape responsibility.
I am sure there are more..
Jr Douglas Imaging
New Member
I disliked the post because you are wrong and cant see it, yet continue to preach like you are correct. Citing install techniques and just not seeing the incompatibility of some materials.
Techman
New Member
Oh, so the entire post was wrong? Every point on that post was wrong? No, you are wrong
This flame war over "outgassing" has been beat to death over the past 20 years. I along with countless others have never observed it. A few will blame it when they have a fail. It doesn't mean it exists.
Yes, there are a very few respected installers that say it happened to them. Three? Four of the thousands.
For the rest of the hundreds of installers using tens of thousands of sheets of plastic over the years there has never been a documented proven instance of genuine outgassing.
There are hundreds of instances of blisters on perfectly smooth surfaces whether on glass, coated aluminum or whatever where outgassing cannot happen. All of them were caused by a failed installer.
Outgassing is a myth and will remain a myth for 99.8% of us until there is a scientific explanation of genuine outgassing on a plastic panel that can be repeated via scientific methods.
reQ
New Member
Made a small 24x120 inch lexan sign face years ago. Cut substrate to right size, peeled the liner from it, installed the vinyl (dry install). Looks great... went home. Came in the morning, bazillion tiny bubbles. Never happened before, googled the problem, seen people mention that sometimes it might be outgasing issue. Had nothing too loose, cleaner lexan again, left it overnight. Installed it again next day - perfect. No bubbles ( i drive by that sign at least twice a day)
After that i always let substrate sit overnight after i peel the liner from it. Maybe i am paranoid, but after it happened once, i don't wanna risk it.
P.S. never have that issue anymore.
P.S.S. Don't care whos right, works for me
After that i always let substrate sit overnight after i peel the liner from it. Maybe i am paranoid, but after it happened once, i don't wanna risk it.
P.S. never have that issue anymore.
P.S.S. Don't care whos right, works for me
rjssigns
Active Member
Its the home brew "application fluid". Never ever use Dawn dish soap for anything except doing dishes. If the rep told the OP to do this he needs to stop. Buy the proper materials/chemicals for the job.
My experience with Dawn soap. Years back I did race trailer graphics for a friend. Ran out of app fluid almost right away. Long story short his wife grabbed some Dawn dish soap from the house so I mixed some up and finished the job. Got a call two hours later and all the vinyl was on the ground.
I researched and found that Dawn reacts or bonds in some way to the adhesive. Been so long I can't remember which.
That was over 20 years ago and have never used home brew app fluid since. No more "issues" either. Rare instance I need app fluid it's Rapid-Tac. 99.99% of installs are done dry now.
My experience with Dawn soap. Years back I did race trailer graphics for a friend. Ran out of app fluid almost right away. Long story short his wife grabbed some Dawn dish soap from the house so I mixed some up and finished the job. Got a call two hours later and all the vinyl was on the ground.
I researched and found that Dawn reacts or bonds in some way to the adhesive. Been so long I can't remember which.
That was over 20 years ago and have never used home brew app fluid since. No more "issues" either. Rare instance I need app fluid it's Rapid-Tac. 99.99% of installs are done dry now.
Techman
New Member
Window tint adhesive is not the same as vinyl adhesive. Not by a long shot.
Most window tint has water activated glue.
And, baby shampoo contains formaldehyde with
Sodium Trideceth Sulfate
1,4-dioxane
Cocamidopropyl Betaine
Who wants all that under their vinyl? Vinyl is not water activated.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Actually, not quite true. Years ago many vinyl manufacturers had available many lines with a water-based adhesive. Why ?? I don't know, but they did. Kapco was one of them. In the beginning..... early 80s, the wet method was the rage, until you would use a vinyl with a water-based adhesive. Cripes, that stuff wouldn't stick for sh!t. So, one time I called them and they said, oh, you're using the wet method. You cannot do that and explained why. So, I know some companies still make some water-activated glues, but almost anything we do is done dry.Who wants all that under their vinyl ?? Who wants that on their baby's head is an even better question ??
