Opinion of Sign permit and inspectors, whats the limits?

[visual800]

Let me first say I think sign permits are nothing but a money funneling waste of time UNLESS your doing major pylon signage or electrical signage. Times are tough and we did a sign in a neighboring town. We made an aluminum frame and stretched a banner over it as a means to cut corners for a new business for friends we know, From the street it looks pretty damn good, which is what I was going for. I do not have a license for this town because I do no business there and I don't see fit wasting money getting one over 1 simple job and before you say it I know I AM THE ONLY ONE ON HERE that does that, cause everyone else is 100% honest.

The city got in touch with the owner and said she needed a permit for the sign, she then called me and of course I will handle this for her. The girl on the phone from the city was very nice. and I told her we installed that for free for the family as we know then and to help them out since times are tough. She agreed and said she would run it by the inspector. Well lo and behold he called me back and was p***k of the month right off the bat.

He explained to me I needed a license to do business in that town. I informed I was not paid for that job as they are friends. He said it matters not you need a license. I said when I was there 2 guys helped me take the sign on the roof do they also need licenses? If so what would they need it for contruction? signage? Can we all 3 share the one license or do we all need to get seperate? I will be more than happy to pay for the sign permit but I don't see where doing a sign for free as a favor is constituted as business and I will like for you to check into this and get back with me sir and let me know your thoughts.

He actually was silent this whole time and he said he would do that....I really do not expect to hear back from this town hall.

Now go ahead and lets discuss your thoughts and don't be posting all your damn list of rules and regulations and other BS you can dig up on the internet use your common sense based on the information I have provided.

 

[SignManiac]

Expect to see more rigorous enforcement all over. Towns, cities, counties, states are hemorrhaging money and are desperately looking for added revenue streams. I've been running into this more and more.

 

[Locals Find!]

I agree with you on sign permits. I am installing a coroplast sign for my mechanic onto a frame that was built out of 2x4x and a 4x4 post probably over 10 years ago. No permit ever. I go and pull the old shop name off to install the new one and now they want him to permit the entire structure. A permit that will cost more than the sign and the cost of the wood frame.

This is sitting on private property 50 feet back from the road in an empty lot surrounded by a fence. They wanna check to make sure it won't fall on someone. Screw them, the insurance company had no issue with it as it had a fence to keep everyone away.

If they persist I am going to slap a "For Sale" Sign down below the sign and then I won't need their stinking permit. It's not like this guy is running a million dollar a year operation just a guy trying to squeak out a living in a 1 bay shop.

 

[FatCat]

In the town I'm located, I feel they (zoning and ARB) are more worried about "looks" than "safety". I feel I honestly could go and install a rickety POS on the side of a building with velcro and duct tape, and as long as it used colors from their approved palette, an approved layout with contrasting background and fell within the max square footage allowed for the location, AND my check for the permit cleared - all would be approved and ready to go. :Big Laugh

So yah, I feel ya.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Times are tough and we did a sign in a neighboring town.

Expect to see more rigorous enforcement all over. Towns, cities, counties, states are hemorrhaging money and are desperately looking for added revenue streams. I've been running into this more and more.

This is it right here and as was said, expect more of it. They are digging up more old and outdated laws around here and enforcing them and this city, county, state isn't as bad off as the rest. So I can only imagine what they do in the harder hit areas.

This type of "stuff" is very much based in politics (which would include beautification (oddly enough)) more so then it really is based on safety. Some are, but the majority is not. Just paying the piper to conduct business.

 

[rjssigns]

The last permit I got was to put a small ACM panel on a doctors office. Simple enough, but here's the kicker. The permit issued for that 2' x 4' panel locks in any further signage to 8 square feet as long as the original panel exists.
It's apparent their thinking is to get more money. Lets see, one permit for removal of existing, another for the larger sign so I can put the second clients larger sign up, and yet another for the additional signage...

 

[CanuckSigns]

Our city revamped their sign bylaw about 2 years ago, they made it so pretty much the only signs that don't need a permit are election signs (suprise!)

however, err, we have tried contacting city hall a bunch of times to enquire about permits, what is allowed etc. and to this day we have never been able to find who deals with sign permits, no one at city hall knows whose job it is to handle it. The only thing I have is a trifold brochure giving very vague rules.

 

[MikePro]

City of madison just stuck me a few years back for putting vinyl graphics on an EXISTING illuminated canopy above a Verizon store converted into Calzone Shop. better to be safe than sorry, always apply for a permit. we ended up having to eat $250 in fines, apply for a $100 permit. The handful of free calzones I received from my friend, the owner, definitely did not make me feel any better.

 

[ddarlak]

if you've been in the sign business for any length of time your gonna run into this.

your only mistake was not informing your friend that if anyone calls their answer is I made the sign myself and installed it myself, period, end of story, my name never comes up.

the inspectors options at that point are to make them pay for a permit or tell them to take it down.

 

[Billct2]

I hate zoning and building permits.
We have several towns that now require an engineer stamped drawing for ANY sign installed.
So the permits/fees for a $800 wall sign can cost more than the sign.
There was a time when a building inspector could look at a set of plans and make their own judgement
about it's integrity.
Also some of these architectural review boards meet maybe once a month, so it may be months before you can get on the agenda. Now they don't have the real world experience and/or want to take the responsibilty for doing their job.
And then a lot of them are absolutely miserable people to deal with and automaticaly want to deny the application and
you have to kiss butt just so you don't make an enemy, after all their paycheck is guaranteed, along with the benefits & paid vacations.
Vent done.

 

[Z SIGNS]

Rules are rules.Does not matter to the inspectors whether the the sign was for a friend and you did it for free.We don't get a permit for every sign we do like if it's changing out a plastic face in an existing light box.If it's new sign and not a replacement we get a permit or let the customer make the call whether or not get a permit and have them sign off on it that the permit was their responsibility.I know it sucks but just be glad they are not fining you or making you provide engineer drawings.

 

[SignManiac]

I hate zoning and building permits.
We have several towns that now require and engineer stamped drawing for ANY sign installed.
So the permits/fees for a $800 wall sign can cost more than the sign.
There was a time when a building inspector could look at a set of plans and make their own judgement
about it's integrity.
Also some of these architectural review boards meet maybe once a month, so it may be months before you can get on the agenda. Now they don't have the real world experience and/or want to take the responsibilty for doing their job.
And then a lot of them are absolutely miserable people to deal with and autmaticaly want to deny the application and
you have to kiss butt just so you don't make an enemy, after all their paycheck is guaranteed, along with the benefits & paid vacations.
Vent done.

No truer words spoken. I just made $575.00 4X8 sign for a customer who ended up paying an additional $1,200.00 for the permit acquisition, permit fee, engineer drawings and installation. The customer said in the beginning they would pull the permit to put the sign up, which years ago you could do. But they were getting $400 of grant money from downtown and found out they could not pull a permit on their own. They were pissed at me, but I had nothing to do with it. They would have been better off saying to hell with the grant and just putting it up.

 

[David Wright]

So called historic districts are even better. There you will run into design review committees, scheduled weeks in advance, and take time out or your schedule to sit with these asses.
Of course many municipalities around here liked the idea of design review without the committee part but use this BS to jack up the fees.

 

[GWSigns]

As our company is expanding throughout Middle Tennessee, we have construction sites upon which we place temporary 4' x 8' wood & post signs noting the bank that is financing the project - paid for by the bank.


I find it interesting the variance on which cities require sign permits..how long they can be up..and which cities really do not care or do not enforce it at all.

 

[fresh]

In the past two years, I've lost over $30K in work because my clients couldn't get permits. I had someone come in to redo outdated signs. He wanted to REPLACE a rotting old sign with a new carved, gold leaf sign, and add some letters to the face indicating the entrance for the restaurant. Nope, couldn't get a permit, so he decided just to scrap the project. Another client is using broken sandwich boards (that we sold for a discount as a temporary solution) for a sign since you don't need a permit for them. He was going to get two 4x8 carved signs (installed in a V-shape,) in addition to some other building-mounted signs. I drive past those damn "borrowed" sandwich boards ALL the time and it makes my blood boil.


Right now I have a $10K job on hold because of permit issues - They actually already have a permit for signs, but because I'm changing the layout from the original architects drawing, I have to start over from scratch. The zoning inspector is a d o uche bag, I really want to share the unreasonable denial letter he sent me. "OH I can't multilple 78 x 1.2. You have to multiple it yourself and then state if that number is larger or smaller than 48 on the application." WTF?

 

[Gino]

Some really good answers flying around here.

I fully understand the need for permits from both sides.

We're doing four nice size signs and told the customer to inquire about the permits, since we're refacing the signs. Just got an e-mail today from the borough telling us they are going to waive the permits, since the sign exists and we're only changing some words around. I was floored. We're registered in this particular municipality, but then, we are in quite a few of them. We just did some in a township about 12 miles from this one and the permits cost about $400, plus we had to wait about 8 weeks for their blessings. All we did there was add small 12" x 46" dibond signs to brick bases.

I believe with ALL the municipalities hurting and merging around the country they are enforcing old codes and inventing new ones. They are protecting their butts from frivolous lawsuits by masking sure all the ducks are lined up from horrible layouts to hacks putting things up without proper insurance or know-how.

Serioulsy, how many people come here asking some of the most basic questions to rather involved installations which is quite obvious they are in way over their head and if something goes wrong, whose gonna pay ??

If the installer isn't properly insured.... or the shop owner, it's gonna come back on the borough or township that they didn't provide ample investigation on those doing the work. Another place where Joe Public wants the government to protect them, but we don't want it. Win/Win..... I think not. ow the municipality has to pay out some outrageous claim becasue no one did what they were supposed to right off the bat.

Try to read between the lines here, but someone did mention already how to handle this kinda matter up front.

 

[Graphic Destruction]

I LOVE the municipalities that require SE drawings for a simple post and panel job.
$200 to an engineer to tell me how deep to dig and exactly how much concrete to use + $150 permit fees for a $600 sign.

 

[Marlene]

everyone hates these guys. zoning sucks but what sucks more are desgin and review boards as they have on them people who set up rules that are based only on what they like or don't like. it all rots but it is part of the job so doing a sign without proper permits is what we do. it is part of being an actual sign shop and not some hack with a ladder and some cheap equipment they bought off e-bay

 

[TXFB.INS]

I understand the importance of installing safe signs. Heck there are plenty of threads here about hack installs
but some of these Municodes are STUPID and when you point out the obvious flaws they get all pissy and you then get black labeled for future permits

on more than 1 occasion, we find out the location for install and will A walk away from the job or B have the customer install and provide any material / design specs that they need

 

[Pat Whatley]

I'm having a hard time figuring out why you'd need a business license when you weren't conducting a business transaction but seeing as how I live in that town and know how it works I'm guess you got an inspector with nothing else to do yesterday.

As far as the permit....yeah, you need one of those. We need the tax money so we can build a wider road to the casino since that sucker takes in $200,000,000 a year in profits they don't pay tax on. Oddly enough, I'm pretty sure our permits are based on a percentage of the cost of the sign and since you did the sign for free how much is a permit? Since you didn't charge for it put had material costs that means you lost around $200. If the permit is 1.5% of -$200 then when you get the permit they should hand you $3 with it!